Page 3 of 6

Another set

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:51 am
by Stringbreaker
Nothing here too much worse than locrian mode. I'm making a few passes at preparing fretboard charts for these modes, but it may take a little while.

The breaking of strings is the beginning of wisdom...

Synthetic 8 - 1 1 2 1 2 3 2 - m2 m2 M2 m2 M2 m3 M2 - c c# d e f g a# c - C Db Ebb Fb Gbb Abb Bb
S8 mode 2 - 1 2 1 2 3 2 1 - m2 M2 m2 M2 m3 M2 m2 - c c# d# e f# a b c - C Db Eb Fb Gb A B
S8 mode 3 - 2 1 2 3 2 1 1 - M2 m2 M2 m3 M2 m2 m2 - c d d# f g# a# b c - C D Eb F G# A# B
S8 mode 4 - 1 2 3 2 1 1 2 - m2 M2 m3 M2 m2 m2 M2 - c c# d# f# g# a a# c - C Db Eb F# G# A Bb
S8 mode 5 - 2 3 2 1 1 2 1 - M2 m3 M2 m2 m2 M2 m2 - c d f g g# a b c - C D E# F## G# A B
S8 mode 6 - 3 2 1 1 2 1 2 - m3 M2 m2 m2 M2 m2 M2 - c d# f f# g a a# c - C D# E# F# G A Bb
S8 mode 7 - 2 1 1 2 1 2 3 - M2 m2 m2 M2 m2 M2 m3 - c d d# e f# g a c - C D Eb Fb Gb Abb Bbb

Re: Another section...

Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:27 pm
by smj
Stringbreaker wrote:
Are there any real authorities on the subject I could speak with on this and related matters? I haven't managed a discussion with a really advanced musician on the topic yet and I have tried contacting quite a few. I can't get past the flappers for the famous ones and I can't find any of the others thus far. As for local authorities a local music teacher says my material is too advanced for most of his students. Sigh.
I would really recommend (if you haven't already) checking out Slonimsky's Thesaurus of scales. It's been around for a long time and is often sited as a reference used by people such as John Coltrane, Steve Vai....and numerous other musicians.

To me, this isn't really anything new... simply another way of presenting it. I prefer Slonimsky's presentation as he has a description of where the scale is coming from.

IE Interpolation of Two Notes, Infrapolation etc. He has his own syntax.. but once you know the definitions, I find all the scales a lot easier to digest. You can see the concept and you don't have to memorize long formulas to remember the scale.

Again, this is just me.... but you did ask for other opinions.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com

ANother set

Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:33 am
by Stringbreaker
Posting the sheet music form of the scale on a forum like this has its difficulties. I have been tending to a combination of fretboard charts and tabular lists to help support the musicians who do not read sheet music. In general, guitarists tend to know more theory and be more musically illiterate than any other type of musician. I tend to credit the folk tradition for this. Books such as Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" and the Guitar Grimoire series also tend to support this kind of player.

Please note that I am not suggesting that to study sheet music has no value: quite the reverse in fact. But I do not feel that players of some skill should have to wait for more advanced theoretical concepts before learning sheet music. If they study long enough, they will inevitably be driven to learning it.

The breaking of strings is the beginning of wisdom...

Synthetic 7 - 1 1 2 1 2 2 3 - m2 m2 M2 m2 M2 M2 m3 - c c# d e f g a c - C Db Ebb Fb Gbb Abb Bbb
S7 mode 2 - 1 2 1 2 2 3 1 - m2 M2 m2 M2 M2 m3 m2 - c c# d# e f# g# b c - C Db Eb Fb Gb ab B
S7 mode 3 - 2 1 2 2 3 1 1 - M2 m2 M2 M2 m3 m2 m2 - c d d# f g a# b c - C D Eb F G A# B
S7 mode 4 - 1 2 2 3 1 1 2 - m2 M2 M2 m3 m2 m2 M2 - c c# d# f g# a a# c - C Db Eb F G# A Bb
S7 mode 5 - 2 2 3 1 1 2 1 - M2 M2 m3 m2 m2 M2 m2 - c d e g g# a b c - C D E F## G# A B
S7 mode 6 - 2 3 1 1 2 1 2 - M2 m3 m2 m2 M2 m2 M2 - c d f f# g a a# c - C D E# F# G A Bb
S7 mode 7 - 3 1 1 2 1 2 2 - m3 m2 m2 M2 m2 M2 M2 - c d# e f g g# a# c - C D# E F G Ab Bb

Re: ANother set

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:55 am
by smj
Stringbreaker wrote:
In general, guitarists tend to know more theory and be more musically illiterate than any other type of musician. I tend to credit the folk tradition for this. Books such as Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry" and the Guitar Grimoire series also tend to support this kind of player.

Please note that I am not suggesting that to study sheet music has no value: quite the reverse in fact. But I do not feel that players of some skill should have to wait for more advanced theoretical concepts before learning sheet music. If they study long enough, they will inevitably be driven to learning it.
Who you calling illiterate?....kidding. No actually I agree with you. There's a variety of reasons I think. One of the reasons though why it's so frickin hard to sight read on guitar is because it's one of the few instruments where you can play middle C in five different locations (and other notes).

Rock/pop music in general has always been a street school kind of music.

Still, the visual presentation of notated music vs fretboard chart wasn't what I was getting at. It's how the scales are conceived.

I would think if you were going to sell this material and put it into a book, it would be helpful for you to provide players with some insight as to how you're getting these scales and to provide an organized system. Just rolling out all these formulas might intimidate more that inspire some players who want to check this stuff out.

But then, this is a sound byte generation. Maybe if you just call it "How to use synthetic scales and get laid"....

Possibly you've already thought through how you're going to present this and have some applications in mind? Perhaps since you've posted so many of these, you could now provide some players with some examples of how they can use this stuff...maybe some sound clips.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com

Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:42 pm
by Stringbreaker
In my thread Scales in G I just posted a selection of fretboard charts for all 7 modes of the major scale. I am using photobucket for the images, but I have not yet found a convenient host for wav files.

I agree that sheet music is inadequate for the guitar in that is says a whole lot about what and very little about how. For precision in pitch and duration it is spot on. For guitar specific information it is really lacking.

My current concept is to produce the material in pdf files where I can embed audio files as well as images in various format. If I had the time I could make flash movies as well. I have the skill, just not the time right now. Imagine a scale in a fretboard chart, the sheet music next to it, tab next to that and a play button so you can hear it all in one section of a page.

As for how I am getting the scales, the actual method of derivation would be boring in the extreme. This was a musical set theory exercise where I determined that by converting the intervals between the notes of the scales into integers (representing semitones) that a complete scale always equals 12 when the numbers are summed up. I created a table of every possible set of 7 notes (numbers) and filtered it to show only those that equal 12. I then reconverted it back to musical notation. The tedious part of the exercise was finding all of the existing scales I knew about and inserting the names for them. From there I added my own names just to have something to call the rest. I used the number patterns to find all of the mode groups and properly replicated all of the existing scale patterns, then sorted them into related groups.

As you can see: not difficult, but tedious and time consuming. Looking up scales, converting them to numbers that I could look up then notating them was the process.

If you have ideas regarding sound clips, I already have wav files for all of the 14 basic types and their modes (98 moderate sized wav's). I can create the others fairly easily if I have the need.

The breaking of strings is the beginning of wisdom...

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:01 am
by smj
Btw, have you worked out how many possible 7 note scales there are?

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com

Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:22 am
by Stringbreaker
Yes, I thought I had mentioned that. There are 462 of them. When you divide them into associated mode groups there are 66. When you remove the 14 known groups, there are 52 groups remaining or 364 possible synthetic scales.

The breaking of strings is the beginning of wisdom...

Re: Synthetic scales answer

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:10 pm
by Breeder
Stringbreaker wrote: Subtracting 14 from 66 leaves 52 possibilities (364 total scales). I am suspecting that at least one of them may have some real use.

So there's why. I hope I didn't lose you with all the blah-blah...

The breaking of strings is the beginning of wisdom...
It has been a long time since you started this topic...
So did you stumble upon some useful ones that you would like to share with us? :D :D

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:38 pm
by Stephen Brown
Mr Stringbreaker can we see you play?

See me play?

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:11 pm
by Stringbreaker
Hi there.

I have been off this topic and the boards since I have moved overseas to New Zealand. I have barely unpacked my guitar and will have to wait until I have my laptop and camera set up to record anything. As for watching me play, you will see a very ordinary looking chap playing fingerstyle on an archtop guitar, sometimes with a cello spike installed to achieve a more vertical position for the guitar. If you want to study someone with more radical technique, look at videos of Jeff Healey or Michael Hedges, or Preston Reed for that matter. I have spend more time on theory and less of performance, although I hope to fix that before long.

The breaking of strings is the beginning of wisdom...

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:04 pm
by lydian2000
FRETPICK wrote:Mr Stringbreaker can we see you play?
+1 :twisted:

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:28 pm
by LoveBlood
lydian2000 wrote:
FRETPICK wrote:Mr Stringbreaker can we see you play?
+1 :twisted:
+2, Mr Stringbreaker, I applaud your dedication to theory, the guitar and what you do here on the forum.

Re: See me play?

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:34 pm
by Stephen Brown
Stringbreaker wrote:. As for watching me play, you will see a very ordinary looking chap playing fingerstyle on an archtop guitar, sometimes with a cello spike installed to achieve a more vertical position for the guitar.
I hope the move went ok & I look forward to you giving a rendition some time. Finger palpitations of some of these scale would be great to hear.

Auckland?

Landed in Wellington

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:39 am
by Stringbreaker
Hi all,

I am now based on the north island and I am working as a software tester in Wellington. As soon as my life settles down I will be brushing off my theory notes, recreating a website and attempting to finalize my work on scales. The current idea is to have a rosetta stone type of approach where piano keys, sheet music and fretboard charts will be presented in parallel with each other. I have prepared most of a sample page based on the major scale and modes - if I can set up a proper web space I should be able to post more than a few of them in PDF format. Incidentally, preparing sound files for scales is no problem...given the time, of course.

The breaking of strings is the beginning of wisdom...

Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:01 pm
by guitarmanK1982
Stringbreaker wrote:I have some difficulty regarding any of the scales in this set as being directly useful: so it is probably a prime candidate for exploration. Especially to one of my big theoretical questions: does a double flatted fifth lose its function in scales such as the first mode here? While these scales are largely a theoretical exercise, the ear does hold sway: is a fifth always a fifth, even when the scale puts it is a different place? Is there a general rule on this kind of behavior? I haven't seen it yet and I am fairly well read. Anyone?

Stringbreaker - i'm familiar with almost all of these scales, since many exercises on music theory/composition courses involve trying to create your own modes and write music for them.

Your thinking of the scales is wrong e.g. your 'synthetic 9' scale, which you have as C C# D E F G# A - this is just one of the hungarian minor modes, only starting on C. If you were to start on D, you would have the mode beginning on the tonic:

D E F G# A C C# D (R 2 b3 #4 5 #6 7 R)

PS - it should be B#, not C (D E F G# A B# C# D). This makes it make far more sense, as we are now using each letter of the alphabet - which is standard form in scale writing (7-note scales, I mean).

So, it is just a modal form of one of the hungarian minor scales (the 6th mode). The b3 and #4 are idiosyncratic of the eastern European 'sound', and can be found in Romanian/Hungarian/Moldovan music etc etc .


I don't want to spoil your fun by explaining them all to you (this is why i'm not telling you which hungarian minor scale it is from ;)), and where they come from (plus I don't have the time for that), but sorry kid - there is nothing new here - all you are doing is making them look new and exciting by presenting them in a rather difficult and contrived format.



However, I commend you for your diligence, and your enthusiasm towards music theory.

But you aren't going to contribute anything to music theory by walking this path, as it has all already been covered - many, many times.