9th 11th 13th chords

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Roger
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-SkiZ- wrote:maj add 9 with the 2nd in the same octave doesn't sound bad at all. i guess it depends on the instrument, in a distorted guitar it wouldn't sound so good...
You don't say maj add 9. Maj tells us there's a 7 and therefore the 2nd is a 9 and the whole chord is called maj9. If we didn't have the 7 it would be add9.

Roger
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-SkiZ-
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i did mean no 7th
Roger
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-SkiZ- wrote:i did mean no 7th
:peace
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:headbang
seljer
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-SkiZ- wrote:i did mean no 7th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQLXfjcMYKE

"normally I hate sevenths because they sound like jazz" :lol:
smj
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Someone earlier got it right.

The difference between 2 vs 9, 4 vs 11, 6 vs 13 is the presence of the 7. Consider the following:

CMaj7(9) vs CMaj9 vs C9 vs C7(9)

CMaj7(9)= 1 3 5 7 9
CMaj9= 1 3 5 7 9
C9= 1 3 5 b7 9
C7(9)= 1 3 5 b7 9

Ok here's where things can get tricky. Sometimes the difference between 9 and 2 is dependent on the presence of the 3rd. Consider the following scenarios:

Csus2 vs Cadd9

Csus2= 1 2 5 (not 1 5 9)
Cadd9= 1 3 5 9
CMaj69= 1 3 5 6 9

"suspended" immediately implies the absence of the 3rd which can be replaced by either the 2 or 4. Hence you can have a sus2 or sus4 chord

Same thing goes for minor chords:

Cmin(add9) vs Cmin9 (or Cmin7(9))

Cmin(add9)= 1 b3 5 9
Cmin7(9)= 1 b3 5 b7 9
Cmin9= 1 b3 5 b7 9

Ok, let's clear up some other stuff with 11's and 13's

C11 vs C7sus4 vs C7(11) vs CMaj7(11) vs CMaj11 vs Cmin11 vs Cmin(11) vs Csus4

C11= 1 3 5 b7 9 11 (do you really want this chord???)
C7sus4= 1 4 5 b7 (a better alternative for C11)
C7(11)= 1 3 5 b7 11 (do you really want this chord???)
CMaj7(11)= 1 3 5 7 11 (do you really want this chord???)
CMaj11= 1 3 5 7 9 11 (do you really want this chord???)
Cmin11= 1 b3 5 b7 9 11
Cmin7(11)= 1 b3 5 b7 11
Csus4= 1 4 5

Remember tensions (9, 11, and or 13) in chords are generally 1 whole step above a chord tone with the exception of dominant 7 chords (which can have b9, b13....etc) That said, even on Dom7 chords, natural 11 and 3 don't normally sit well together. One or the other....but not both. #11 however is a whole step above the 3rd, so that is more acceptable.

For this reason, you usually wouldn't want C11 because that implies the 3 and the 11 are together. The 11 is only a half step above the 3rd...and doesn't sound that great (except in specific circumstances) when voiced together in a chord. C7sus4 would be a better alternative as the 3rd is not present.

C7(#11) vs C7(b5) vs CMaj7(#11) vs CMaj7(b5)

C7(#11)= 1 3 5 b7 #11 (if you want 9 as well, then C7(9,#11)
C7(b5)= 1 3 b5 b7
CMaj7(#11)= 1 3 5 7 (#11)
CMaj7(b5)= 1 3 b5 7

In this case, the #11 means implies the presence of the natural 5. b5 however implies the absence of natural 5.

C13 vs C7(13) vs CMaj6, vs C6 vs Cmin6 CMaj13 vs CMaj7(13)

C13= 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13 (do you really want this chord???)
C7(13)= 1 3 5 b7 13
CMaj6= 1 3 5 6
C6= 1 3 5 6
Cmin6= 1 b3 5 6
Cmin13= 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13
Cmin7(13)= 1 b3 5 b7 13
CMaj13= 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 (do you really want this chord???)
CMaj7(13)= 1 3 5 7 13

C7(b13) vs C7(#5) vs CMaj7(#5) vs C+7 vs C7+

b13 implies the presence of the natural 5.
#5 implies the absence of the natural 5


C7(b13)= 1 3 5 b7 b13
C7(#5)= 1 3 #5 b7
CMaj7(#5)= 1 3 #5 7
C+7= usually means 1 3 #5 b7 (this really is bogus chord notation... do you want Maj(#5) or Dom7(#5)?....there is a difference!!!)
C7+= usually 1 3 #5 b7 (again...not a great way to notate this chord!)

Sean Meredith-Jones
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Roger
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Great info Sean!

but isn't this just really confusing things?

CMaj7(11)= 1 3 5 7 11 (do you really want this chord???)
CMaj11= 1 3 5 7 9 11 (do you really want this chord???)

I write only Cmaj11 which I always do no matter if I want the 9 or not.
To me 11 means there is a 7, 9 and an 11. Or you could play the 9 if you want to and it sounds good.


Same here

Cmin13= 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13
Cmin7(13)= 1 b3 5 b7 13

I know it is to be able to be very exact in the notes you want but it confuses more than it clears to me.
If you don't want the 9 just write "please for the love god do not add the 9"? :mrgreen:
smj
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Hi Roger,

Yeah, it is confusing.... but when you're in a critical studio/live situation and there's money on the table....you have players reading your charts for the first time... there often isn't a lot of time to explain stuff. You have to write EXACTLY what you want.

Sometimes the writer wants a 13 and not the 9 and 11. It should be specified then.... and there needs to be an organized and precise way of writing it.

Here's another scenario. Suppose you're in CMajor and you write the chord Emin11. The player then assumes you want the 9 there as well. In this situation, the 9 is F#....a note not in the key. The writer didn't want the 9 there to begin with because it will be out of place. E-7(11) would avoid this problem.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com
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-SkiZ-
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seljer wrote:
-SkiZ- wrote:i did mean no 7th
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQLXfjcMYKE

"normally I hate sevenths because they sound like jazz" :lol:
"freaking hate jazz" that's so un-swedish...hahaha
seljer
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smj wrote:Hi Roger,

Yeah, it is confusing.... but when you're in a critical studio/live situation and there's money on the table....you have players reading your charts for the first time... there often isn't a lot of time to explain stuff. You have to write EXACTLY what you want.

Sometimes the writer wants a 13 and not the 9 and 11. It should be specified then.... and there needs to be an organized and precise way of writing it.

Here's another scenario. Suppose you're in CMajor and you write the chord Emin11. The player then assumes you want the 9 there as well. In this situation, the 9 is F#....a note not in the key. The writer didn't want the 9 there to begin with because it will be out of place. E-7(11) would avoid this problem.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com
I thought that for an 11 chord the 9th was only optional?
and for a 13th chord the 9th and 11th are optional
and that with extended chords you can often get away with dropping the 5th too for less cluttered voicings
I mean if its got the 7th and 11th wouldn't it be Em11 anyway? and you'd use Em7(11) to explicitly imply that they're NOT to play the 9th
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leigh01
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seljer wrote:I thought that for an 11 chord the 9th was only optional?
and for a 13th chord the 9th and 11th are optional
and that with extended chords you can often get away with dropping the 5th too for less cluttered voicings
I mean if its got the 7th and 11th wouldn't it be Em11 anyway? and you'd use Em7(11) to explicitly imply that they're NOT to play the 9th

Thats the same as what I learnt. :? :)
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burnt out
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They are 'kind of' optional but they are also implied by the chord name.That's why as Sean says it is best to specify exactly which extensions you want in parenthesis after the basic seventh chord.

E-7(11) tells exactly which notes you want in the chord.

E-7(11) also contains the exact same notes as E minor pentatonic by the way

It's always possible to omit the 5th,
and the root too assuming the bassist plays the root for instance.

Really the 3rd and 7th plus any extensions in the chord name are the most vital notes and you "CAN" then pare your voicing down from there to a smaller voicing.But once you've pared down a voicing then you may need to specify what notes are in your voicing specifically by using the parenthesis method as in the E-7(11) example.
Roger
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I get that it's good to specify the notes you want, but it can get ridicilous too.
If you're in a "critical" studio/live situation and there's money involved, shouldn't there at least be any rehearsal time and maybe you could get the song in advance to learn it?

Imagine this:

Em7(11) no5 no1, 3rd on the top. This is my madman song and I need the guitar player to play it like this.
Seriously, who can sight read that? It's like writing notes in words, which... Em7(11) is to me in a way, but maybe a little less complicated.

It's a little extreme yes, but using the logic written out earlier it could very well be used.
Now fire at will :mrgreen:
smj
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Roger wrote:
If you're in a "critical" studio/live situation and there's money involved, shouldn't there at least be any rehearsal time and maybe you could get the song in advance to learn it?
In a perfect world yes.... but more often than not....no. High caliber musicians are always working because they're in demand.... so many times it's not possible to get everyone in the same room prior to a session or live engagement.
Roger wrote: Imagine this:

Em7(11) no5 no1, 3rd on the top. This is my madman song and I need the guitar player to play it like this.
Seriously, who can sight read that? It's like writing notes in words, which... Em7(11) is to me in a way, but maybe a little less complicated.
You're right. I would never notate something and have "no fifth" or "third on top". In situations like those, there are other systems of notation that can be employed:

1) Write the notes of the voicing specifically on the staff... this is only when there are unique voicings that are required....as well as voice leadings....where the author does it to specify which note they want on top of the voicing.

2) Slash chords.

Scenario one is pretty straight forward.... write the notes.

Scenario two:

Suppose I want E-7 with 9,11 and no third. I would simply write: D/E..... done.

You could also do a chord on chord system using a horizontal slash

Suppose I want EMaj7 with 9, #11, 13. I could write

EMaj7(9,#11,13) (with the tensions stacked vertically from low to high).... but that gets tricky too. So, you could write it this way:

F#
EMaj7

That means you want an EMaj7 chord and an F#Maj triad over it.

For some people, they'll never need to know any of this stuff. For me, I get paid to transcribe music for the music dept at a church I attend. Some of the music I have to write out is a crazy gospel piece where there's tons of changes. You have a full 40-50 member gospel choir, piano, strings....etc. You have to make your charts clear. When there's that many harmonies going on (strings, choir, piano, guitar) there can be some really muddy chords coming off because everyone is interpreting the chart differently. That's why it has to be clear.

And yes.... often we have one rehearsal before we have to play it.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com
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Ricardo
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As a guitarist, I try to strip down to essentials as much as I can when reading a chart, to leave room for the melody to fill in the other notes.

Like 1,3,7, is good, but sometimes you dont' even need 3 because it is the melody. E11, I just bar the 7th fret. Em11, same but no 9th, 10th fret instead. If the G note is in the melody, then just that same E11 bar is cool. Even in key of C, hearing that F# can be cool to influence the soloist. Only if the melody is specifically F, but would that really be the right harmony then? G11, for me is an F triad with G bass. You can write it different ways, but to be safe there are some standard grips. G13, just G7 bar with the 6th added, or even an open e string sounds cool (using that same F triad over G bass).

I think if different people interpret a chart different ways, it is cool, so long as you don't have b9 in the melody and minor9th harmony, that type of thing. I don't mind an accompanist for my solo throwing in #5 or #9 on the dominant chord, or b9. etc. Even if I am just playing mixolydian, it is all good. And if it is a C maj9 I want, and the accompaniment only plays C major, or Cmaj7, it is still cool in my book, because I am doing the 9th with my solo. 11 and 13 too if I want. As the soloist, I can redifine the underlying harmony with my note choice. And vice versa for the accompanyist. And I mean anystyle of music really, not just jazzy stuff.

Ricardo
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