What made vai study metaphysics?

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Big Bad Bill
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Rollo wrote:I don't know if I believe much of auras, astral travel and whatnot, but I have recently discovered a few things that keep showing me that there is a lot more on reality than we see. There is a very good movie that talks about actual concrete things that prove this, it is called "that the bleep do we know?" and I really recomend it.
Like what Rollo?
Rollo wrote:For example, it talks about an experiment done in Washington in 1993 to reduce crime violence just by getting people from different parts of the world to reunite in there and just meditate. As it was hypothesized crime did go down in an amazing way. The article on this can be found here http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/
Did you hear about the Christian surgeon who decided to see if prayer would help the recovery of his patients? He found it had no effect and it actually seemed to produce more complications in his patients!

Benson H, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, Lam P, Bethea CF, Carpenter W, Levitsky S, Hill PC, Clem DW Jr, Jain MK, Drumel D, Kopecky SL, Mueller PS, Marek D, Rollins S, Hibberd PL.

Mind/Body Medical Institute, Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA. hbenson@bidmc.harvard.edu

BACKGROUND: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. METHODS: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality. RESULTS: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.2 8 ). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

Rollo wrote:It has also been experimentally proven that matter con be at two places at the same time, and that electrones and protons pop in and out of existance.
Are you sure about the matter in two places at once because I think this violates a very fundamental tenet in quantum mechanics called Pauli's Exclusion Principle. Subatomic particle pop in and out of existence? That's really old hat but more down to the way we think/visualise the subatomic world. We tend to think of electrons as tiny little billiard balls orbiting a nucleus. However a more accurate description of say an electron would be a 'point of high probability'-the closer one looks at the 'centre' of an electron the more likely its to be there and the further one moves away, the less likely, but it could still be anywhere about that point, even the other side of the Universe although the probability of this is low. Don't think of electrons as particle orbiting a nucleus but rather a 'probability haze' surrounding the nucleus!
Rollo wrote:These kind of thing really get me thinking about reality and what is really true.
Well we have another problem there: our interface with reality is via our six senses and they are very very very very very unreliable!
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Jeroen
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Big Bad Bill wrote:Are you sure about the matter in two places at once because I think this violates a very fundamental tenet in quantum mechanics called Pauli's Exclusion Principle.
As far as I can see, Pauli talks about 2 particles being identical in time & space, not 1 particle being at two places, which apparently does exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment

But this is very heavy shit :)

J
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Big Bad Bill
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Young's Double Slits, of course! We used to do this in school Physics. But again this is due to the probabilistic nature of the location of a particle. Letting one particle through the slits produces a probability image on the screen behind the slits and the more particle you let through the more definite the pattern. But is the likelihood of being in several places at once the same as being in two places at once.....?
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Jeroen
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Big Bad Bill wrote: But is the likelihood of being in several places at once the same as being in two places at once.....?
According to modern theory, yes. If you don't agree, best take it up with the quantum physicists.....


PS:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all

Anyway, how about we get back on topic ... ;)

J
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Big Bad Bill
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Maybe I should just stick to lowly Neuroscience.
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boswell
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no no this thread was jsut getting interesting!
Rollo
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Dude, watch the movie, you'll all love it, it talks about this quantum things and is really cool. Please watch it.
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