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 Post subject: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:36 pm 
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I just wanted to post my experience and thoughts on this product for anyone else here interested in buying it. Unfortunately I was really disappointed in this. I bought the clamp type like their site suggested for my guitar (Jem 7vwh) and followed the steps very precisely. My guitar had a couple of day old strings on so I didn't feel the need to put on new string but my bridge wasn't sitting correctly so I also decided to set up everything perfectly (AND TOOK A GOOD DEAL OF TIME TO GET IT PERFECT). I installed the tremol-no as directed, then gradually centered the bridge so that it is parallel with the body and then checked all my intonation. I got to the point where I could raise/lower the the whammy and it'd return to the correct pitch. Everything was working perfect.

Now I wanted to have some fun and try out this new device, so I used the deep-c first (which allows you to dive only and not pull up) and tried tuning to drop-D. The deep-c lock in the back shifted very easily (allowing the trem to pull back and change the pitch of all the other strings). I then retuned back to standard and locked the deep-c again, this time I wanted to test the strength so I lightly pulled up on the whammy and could easily move the deep-c (mind you I was locking these as tightly as possible). So I thought well that's shit but as long as I can just lock the trem off all together it'll be ok. So I tried fully locking the trem into 'hardtail' mode. It was able to hold drop-d tuning ok, but I tried detuning to Eb and it had a problem. I then retuned to standard E and test it's strength by pulling on the whammy. With only a little extra force than with the deep-c I could easily move the locks.

It seems that the locking mechanism is just not enough to withstand the kind of pulling forces going on between the strings/springs. I mean it wasn't like I was trying to make it fail by applying alot of pressure, this was unbelievably light. If they can fail like this there's no way they could hold up in a live situation where your putting alot of energy into it. I just can't believe they are selling this, it may work in some guitar setups but it just seems weak and risky and a disaster waiting to happen on stage.

If you were thinking of buying this product please take my experience into consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:53 am 
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While I have no experience with the device, I've been told (by someone we all "know") that it's pretty useless.
I'm sure he doesn't even have it installed anymore...


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:52 am 
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Thanks for posting, I was thinking about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:03 pm 
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http://www.tremol-no.com/default.asp

Heard about them.
------------------------------------------------------------
My trem springs are screwed into the wood & I make the balance there. It's not going anyway if it's screwed in enough.

Mind you, these new Ibanez trems have so much great block weight that it's not really a problem anymore, as far as tuning stability goes. + No loss of manoeuvrability either.

Do you use three springs? What about adding another one or two springs? Increased rigidity? Then you may have enough give with the fine tuners for the Eb tuning with stability.
Image
Image
Image


Of course the only issue I can see with the E & Eb tuning is the intonation variables. Although most guitars will hack a semi tone change. Depends how in tune you like to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:53 am 
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um......so you're saying with 4 springs you can tune down to eb with just the fine tuners (as opposed to using 3 springs)?

Using 4 springs may relax each individual spring more but the same force is still being applied, cept it's spread across 4 springs instead of 3. The purpose for making adjustments to the spring claw screws is to find a balance between the spring pull and string pull (which is ultimately getting the tremolo to sit perfectly parallel with the guitar body). The reason you'd adjust the trem claw for adding an extra spring is to find the exact same tension that was applied when using 3 springs. Detuning would make the tremolo pull back into the body just the same as using 3 springs (and possibly moreso). The only difference you'd feel with 4 springs instead of 3 is when you try to dive as your trying to pull 4 springs instead of 3. I don't see how it would be anymore rigid, all it's doing is making your dives a little tougher (which is just down to personal preference). As far as detuning goes, the trem would do the exact same thing as with 3 springs.

I don't see how this would have any effect on the performance of the tremol-no system, infact if it's so weak that I can shift the locks by barely touching the whammy bar, it would have no chance with any amount of springs. Also I don't think you quite get the purpose of the tremol-no system....not having a go at you, just doesn't seem that way by what you wrote.

The tremol-no is suppose to be a solution and time saver for the limitations and risks of a full floating trem (e.g. tuning and string breaks). If you had a separate guitar for each type (dive-only, full-floating and hardtail), there wouldn't be a need for the tremol-no system. It'd just be quicker to grab another guitar (and for someone like steve vai or any artist, ofcourse this device is freckin pointless, he's not standing on stage tuning for a song he just gets one of his million other guitars brought out to him). This device is a cost-effective answer for a person who can't afford 3 separate guitars and that's how they market this device. It's like 3 guitars in one (dive-only, hardtail and full-floating). I don't play many songs out of the standard E tuning, so when I do I want to be able to quickly detune, play the song then quickly tune back to standard. You can't do that with a full-floating trem, you have to spend a lot of time setting your guitar up for that tuning and by then I don't feel like playing the damn song lol. So with the tremol-no I don't want to just tune to eb, I should be able to tune to drop-d, drop-c or any other wild tuning if I desired and have no problems. My expectations for a device like this would be that I could be in tune, cut every single string and the trem wouldn't even budge (infact, I think I read somewhere that you can use the tremol-no to lock the tremolo in place while restringing it). Until I can be assured that a device will do exactly this and handle it very easily I don't think I'll ever bother to buy another one. Anything less than this is unsatisfactory


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:48 am 
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guyver_dio wrote:
I should be able to tune to drop-d, drop-c or any other wild tuning if I desired and have no problems.


No. The guitar intonation will be way out.

I think there is only one guitar on the planet that can do multi tunings with the intonation in sync, & that would be J.Pages multi button Les Paul.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:20 am 
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FRETPICK wrote:
guyver_dio wrote:
I should be able to tune to drop-d, drop-c or any other wild tuning if I desired and have no problems.


No. The guitar intonation will be way out.

I think there is only one guitar on the planet that can do multi tunings with the intonation in sync, & that would be J.Pages multi button Les Paul.


:guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0jiiURy_So

:wink:

:peace


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:06 am 
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i've tuned to drop-d, eb and drop-c before and it sounds fine without adjusting intonation. As far as what I said about other wild tunings, it was merely to point out that I should be able to do all this and more without the trem dropping back into the trem cavity. At the very least, that is what it is designed to do and it can't do that.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:07 am 
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lydian2000 wrote:
FRETPICK wrote:
guyver_dio wrote:
I should be able to tune to drop-d, drop-c or any other wild tuning if I desired and have no problems.


No. The guitar intonation will be way out.

I think there is only one guitar on the planet that can do multi tunings with the intonation in sync, & that would be J.Pages multi button Les Paul.


:guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0jiiURy_So

:wink:

:peace


:wink: It's not Jim's guitar but it will do for this purpose.
Image
http://forums.gibson.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26713


Last edited by Stephen Brown on Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:26 am 
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guyver_dio wrote:
i've tuned to drop-d, eb and drop-c before and it sounds fine without adjusting intonation.


There are some intonation vid's up but I feel this is the best.
Hope that helps.

Tuning one string to another may be in tune but chord wise it will be out.

Image
Which size did you buy?
Image

So really....What you are saying is that you pulled on the bar when the temlo-no was in lock mode & the thing popped out?


Last edited by Stephen Brown on Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:51 am 
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I've had one for several years now, and I love it. IMO it's not primarily meant to enable you to detune your trem-qeuipped guitar (but you can, within reason), it's meant to block your trem where it is like a fixed bridge (or make your trem dive-only) in the tuning that it's usually in. It has been doing that perfectly on my guitar, a 7-string with pretty heavy strings (.011 through .070). It'll allow drop D but IMO that's about it, if you want reliable operation.

Just think of the physics involved. The more you detune, the more force is applied and that thing still has to fit in the spring cavity - between two springs. You could just release some of the spring tension when you do detune (i.e. loosen the screws), that should improve overall stability. Fact is, the more you detune, the more physically impossible it becomes for any type of design to hold against the force of the springs pulling the other way. No 'telescopic'/flexible design will allow any amount of detuning, only inserting a block of wood (or metal) will.

It also significantly improves sustain when it's locked down, because there is now a solid connection between the bridge and the guitar. In the two years or so I've been using it, it hasn't budged, ever, and I sometimes rest pretty heavily on the bridge with my palm. I don't use it dive-only and if you look at the design (just one holding screw in that mode) it shouldn't surprise you that this is not the most rigid of modes. As I understand it, dive-only was added later to the design as a kind of bonus, and IMO it should have two 'arrestor-screws' to be reliable. I don't use it though so I don't care. Dive-only and detuning is pushing it to fail. If it's not detuned, just re-set the 'Deep-C' if it moves.

It's not some magic item, so yes, it can be deliberately made to fail (i.e. budge), but if you use it reasonably, that's practically impossible. If it doesn't hold your bridge tightly in fixed bridge mode, you're doing something wrong.

Of all the trem-setting devices I wholeheartedly recommend this one above all others. It won't turn your guitar into something it isn't - so if you've had a stylistic change of heart and want to play delta slide guitar using half a dozen open tunings a night, maybe don't use the tremol-no JEM - but it can fix the bridge on a floating trem design perfectly and absolutely reliably, without requiring you to make any physical changes to your guitar. Additionally, your sustain is also a little closer to what it would be if you had a fixed bridge.

If you want an altogether different guitar, you'll still have to go get one. But if you want to fix the bridge and then some on the one you have, IMHO the tremol-no is perfect.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:48 am 
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FRETPICK wrote:
guyver_dio wrote:
i've tuned to drop-d, eb and drop-c before and it sounds fine without adjusting intonation.


There are some intonation vid's up but I feel this is the best.
Hope that helps.

Tuning one string to another may be in tune but chord wise it will be out.

So really....What you are saying is that you pulled on the bar when the temlo-no was in lock mode & the thing popped out?


I don't know why you posted a video of how to set up your intonation, I stated in my first post that I went through and set up my guitar (intonation and all), the issue has nothing to do with intonation at all, I've never once stated or suggested that I have an intonation issue. Yet the video is there along with a quote of mine which I have no idea why that sparked you to link that video. Did I say anything about the intonation being perfect? No, I said you can tune to these different tunings without adjusting the intonation and it sounds fine (as far as human hearing goes), I've even played to recordings and you can get away with it.

ok now, THE REASON I GOT THE TREMOL-NO IS: To stop the tremolo from falling back into the trem cavity when detuning

THE PROBLEM: The tremol-no isn't stopping the trem from falling back into the trem cavity. The locking mechanism on the tremol-no, when LOCKED TIGHTLY, will still shift up and down that bar that they are on.

Nevermind disputes about intonation and so forth, that's all I am having a problem with.

Ok the next thing, I've already stated that I bought the clamp type because what you posted is exactly what I read, along with a big chart they have on their site and right next to edge pro it had 'Recommended: Clamp Type'. This is why I said 'like their site suggested'. So yes the model I bought is the right one for my guitar.

Now if you somehow get confused by this post (if that's manageable) and you post a video of a bear dancing cause you think that's got something to do with this then really there's nowhere left for this to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:20 am 
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Try roughing up the bar a little with some sandpaper. That'll give the screws a little more grip. It's high-quality aluminum, so the steel from the screws doesn't make much of an impression on it and hence doesn't have much grip. It's the tradeoff for a durable design. I'll take it.

It also sounds like you're trying some pretty extreme detuning. As I mentioned, when you're really detuning hard, release a little spring tension. Something you can correct easily, like a half-turn or multiples thereof. Tuning all strings to Eb on my guitar means about two full screw turns, IIRC. Also, re-tune to your initial pitch before you put it away.

And don't pull up on the whammy bar, especially not in dive-only mode. You can exert a lot more pressure than anything can possibly hold with the whammy bar through pure leverage. Don't run over it with a truck or heavy machinery, either. It ought to hold fine for your playing though. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:21 pm 
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the only tuning I tune down too from standard is eb, drop-d and drop-c. I wouldn't really call this extreme. Like I said I expected to be able to remove all strings and it still hold its position. I refuse to adjust the spring tension when detuning. The whole point of this product is so you DON'T have to do that. If I wanted to do that I would remove the tremol-no and just do it like I have been for years. The idea of purchasing this product is so I can quickly lock it, detune, play a song, tune back to normal, unlock it and continue playing. It's to save time and energy when detuning on a full-floating trem.

I thought about that 'roughing the bar up idea', you might be able to feel it when using the whammy bar though. I'm thinking I might try over-tightening the screws in an attempt to mark the bar ever so slightly so it has something to grip to (since the guitar is set up properly now, the locks should always slide into roughly the same positions everytime).

But don't you find this a little risky, I mean I realize you can make it fail by pulling on the whammy bar but I wasn't applying much force on it, if I rested my hand on the tremolo the weight of my hand alone could probably make it fail (that's how light I was pulling on the whammy). Could you really put trust in something thats only barely handling the tension? Wouldn't you like a little head room, a little piece of mind that it's gonna hold? Think about being on stage jumping around, hitting the strings hard for a couple of songs, maybe you accidentally tap or knock the whammy bar. It'd fail without question. That's not something I want constantly on my mind when I'm playing.


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 Post subject: Re: Tremol-no
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:34 am 
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I suggest you send it back or sell it. It was a revelation to me, but you're obviously not happy with it and I don't think it's a simple matter of arguing convincingly in favor. :mrgreen:

I do think you got your expectations a little high. The point is simply to block your floating trem. It's a simple mechanical element. It does mechanical things and is limited by the physics and the mechanics of what it does. You can't just completely ignore how something works when you use it. That said though, drop-D should not be a problem. But if you drop to D and pull the whammy bar to double check, well, that's a lot more than what it was designed to withstand.

Also, I somehow never assumed I could remove all strings and restring my guitar without running into any glitches, although frankly, I'm pretty sure I could, if I handled the guitar carefully. I'd still loosen the tremol-no afterwards though just to make sure the trem is perfectly balanced again. Why put strain on something unnecessarily?
I restring one string at a time, the same way I restring my fixed bridges. It puts unnecessary strain on the neck to constantly remove all tension and then put it back on again. And it's messy. And the bridge falls apart on a Les Paul. I only remove all strings at once when I want to thoroughly clean the fretboard. That's maybe once or twice a year.

My phsics are a little rusty, but say if your trem extends a half inch beyond the axis of movement and you apply full palm pressure to that outer edge of the trem, and now you apply the same pressure to the whammy bar, but two inches down the bar, you are applying four times the pressure to the trem with the bar, compared to your palm on the bridge (more than that, actually, due to the L-shape of the bar). The whole whammy bar is, what, six or seven inches long? So if you apply the same amount of pressure to the bar at the point where you regularly use it, you're applying twelve to fourteen times the pressure that your palm would exert directly on the trem itself.

It may seem like an innocent little tug, but by the time it reaches the trem it's a full-fledged yank and most likely a lot more than your palm would ever exert. Just take the bar off when you detune and you shouldn't run into problems.

I'd offer to buy it off you for my other trem-equipped guitar, but customs from AUS would be a b*tch.


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