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Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:47 am
by boswell
Big Bad Bill wrote:One day, digital amps may well be as good as valve/analogue amps-some will even say better that valve amps, whatever 'better' means in this context!
Here lies the problem with guitarists, why can't digital amps be different from valve amps?

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:04 am
by Breeder
because they (excuse me) sound like shity bowl of shity rice compared to valve amps most of the time
guitar noobs may not understand it but every guitarist out there who has developed an ear for music(even not chops) just cannot but notice the difference

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:28 am
by Big Bad Bill
boswell wrote:Here lies the problem with guitarists, why can't digital amps be different from valve amps?
You mean sound different? Well, I guess that might be stretching it for most guitarists since the idiom that is the 'valve sound' (if there is such a thing) is so ingrained in us all, just like the sound of a violin, piano or trumpet is, that any radical alteration to it would be met with such indifference and even disdain that the product would go extinct! It seems to me that those who really like to experiment with new sounds tend to gravitate toward synthesizers.

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:34 am
by Big Bad Bill
Breeder wrote:because they (excuse me) sound like shity bowl of shity rice compared to valve amps most of the time
I was going to eat rice tonight but that image has put me off!
Breeder wrote:..but every guitarist out there who has developed an ear for music(even not chops) just cannot but notice the difference
Or you could say 'has been indoctrinated'...What I mean is that I think a cranked valve amps sounds beautifully creamy compared to the harshness of a digital amp, but I have classical musician friends who think valve amps sound horridly harsh and discordant! Its just what you are accustomed to and I'm sure a generation brought up on digi amps would eventually prefer their sound to a 'muddy' valve amp!

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:46 am
by Breeder
Big Bad Bill wrote:Or you could say 'has been indoctrinated'...
offtopic, but this has really made me laugh, unrelated to the topic :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:36 pm
by al
ive got sittin a few rooms away from me... pretty good amps alrite

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:51 am
by Shade
Big Bad Bill wrote:Actually, I think this is the real problem-guitarists are terminally nostalgic, conservative, old fashioned and prone to believing in 'snake oil'. Humans are very bad at being objective too which is why we have to use techniques such as blind A/B testing with a large sample group to bypass our deficits in objectivity.

One day, digital amps may well be as good as valve/analogue amps-some will even say better that valve amps, whatever 'better' means in this context!
Even if that happens, It'll still be the difference between modern super clean cut recordings and old vinyl records, which do have a certain quality to them that digital recordings lose. Not necessarily that one is superior they just have different qualities.

EDIT: And if digital stuff succeeds in emulating this perfectly, it'll still only be doing what tubes have done from the beginning :).

Its weird, when it comes to digital modeling and SS amps, it seems you either sacrifice tone, or feel. My Crate GMX30 combo amp has warm tube like distortion and cleans up perfectly when you roll the volume back, and responds very well to pick attack. But its basic tone is somewhat cardboardy and less full sounding. While my Peavey Vyper 75 Watt combo has awesome tone that is way more tube like in sound than my crate, but the distortion does -not- clean up well when I roll back the volume knob and it "feels" very fake.

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:03 am
by Big Bad Bill
Shade wrote:Even if that happens, It'll still be the difference between modern super clean cut recordings and old vinyl records, which do have a certain quality to them that digital recordings lose. Not necessarily that one is superior they just have different qualities.
I think that's a very good point actually. -superiority is in the ear of the beholder!
Shade wrote:EDIT: And if digital stuff succeeds in emulating this perfectly, it'll still only be doing what tubes have done from the beginning :).
But at a much higher cost, expensive servicing costs, the need to revalve from time to time and the need for more delicate handling whereas digital equipment should last a lifetime if well made and not abused!
Shade wrote:Its weird, when it comes to digital modeling and SS amps, it seems you either sacrifice tone, or feel. My Crate GMX30 combo amp has warm tube like distortion and cleans up perfectly when you roll the volume back, and responds very well to pick attack. But its basic tone is somewhat cardboardy and less full sounding.
Could this be because of what you're used to hearing on albums? Perhaps I'd think your Crate sounded great because of my experience.
Shade wrote:While my Peavey Vyper 75 Watt combo has awesome tone that is way more tube like in sound than my crate, but the distortion does -not- clean up well when I roll back the volume knob and it "feels" very fake.
I notice the sustain is very different in digital modelling amps-in my limited experience, I hasten to add!

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:09 am
by boswell
Big Bad Bill wrote:I notice the sustain is very different in digital modelling amps-in my limited experience, I hasten to add!
How do you think it's different?

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:06 am
by Big Bad Bill
boswell wrote:How do you think it's different?
It sort of fizzles away prematurely. Even adding compression doesn't make it sound-well, valve-like. As I said, I've had limited experience with the POD being my main source of observation.

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:05 am
by al
valves and digital are completly different digital modelers are getting better but it just does not replicate the sound, ive a tsl100 downstairs aswell as an 800, tiny terror and a thunderverb (not mine!) and a pod which ive used for years upstairs where i am now, its just not the same, Its close, and i have the pod down to a tee to get a nice tone and as similar as i can to a nice overdriven amp, most people wont notice, but if you have used both ways for some time you can hear the difference alrite + <insert clever wording here> :)

but tiny terror's a great piece of gear

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:21 am
by boswell
I've never noticed a lack of sustain with digital modellers, a fizzyness to the distortion yes.

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:38 am
by Stephen Brown
boswell wrote:I've never noticed a lack of sustain with digital modellers, a fizzyness to the distortion yes.
Some of the fizzyness comes from the 12ax7 being pushed to hard so I always trying & keep the gain down, help's combat that problem.

I mean sometimes you want a digital distortion signal. Say "New Metal" type of tones/sold state frequencies. Stylelistic approach.

Take the two guys form opeth. One guitar player has his GT8 D.I'd out to the cab & front of house desk while the other player runs it into his amp first.

Complementary.

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:49 am
by boswell
Of course the ultimate valve tone is often completely obliterated by many players once they've added all their digital/anlogue effects to the signal chain.

As a for instance take Matt Bellamy of Muse he uses Soldano, Fender, Marshall, Vox, Orange, Diezel but you'd be hard pressed to discern which amps he's using on any track.

Re: Orange Tiny Terror

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:20 am
by lydian2000
What really makes me look back all my previous beliefs in retrospect is everytime I discover that the Pod has been used on so many professional rock/metal guitar albums, granted not everyone has access to a 48 track mixing console desk afterwards but the gap is definitely getting thinner these days. And I do own a good 100w tube stack so I konw what the "warmth and tone" of a good tube amp sounds like.

And I'm sure those Pros use the pod just because it's simply more conevenient to carry around than tons of gear, and because to them, it must sound "o.k".

I 've just bought a Line6 UX 2 soundcard and I can now use guitar rig 3, amplitube 2 and line6' Podfarm and I'm very satisfied with the zillion sounds I can get and tweak because it simply gives me "the next best thing" after a real amp/rack collection only very few can afford.

I'm sure analog sounds will always sound nice... in a museum :wink: (some day, not too distant)

:peace