When to use scales such as melodic minor, harmonic minor,etc

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Knyq
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ok i have been meaning to learn these scales, but i am not sure what chords to use them over and things like that.

-melodic minor (and the modes of it)
-harmonic minor (and the modes of it)
-phrygian dominant (which i think is a mode of one of the above)

can someone help out here? thanks
theox
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Knyq wrote:ok i have been meaning to learn these scales, but i am not sure what chords to use them over and things like that.

-melodic minor (and the modes of it)
-harmonic minor (and the modes of it)
-phrygian dominant (which i think is a mode of one of the above)

can someone help out here? thanks
Take every second note of those scales and build chords.

For example C melodic minor:

C D Eb F G Ab B

The notes C Eb G and B makes the chord CmMaj7
The notes D F Ab and C = Dm7b5
The notes Eb G B D = Ebmaj7#5

Now you try some, you'll learn a lot more by doing this by yourself than if someone else gives you all the answers, and besides I've got better things to do. :wink:

Try to come up with interesting progressions with the chords you find.
brainpolice
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Knyq wrote:ok i have been meaning to learn these scales, but i am not sure what chords to use them over and things like that.

-melodic minor (and the modes of it)
-harmonic minor (and the modes of it)
-phrygian dominant (which i think is a mode of one of the above)

can someone help out here? thanks
melodic - the I chord in a minor key of course
harmonic - the I chord in a minor key as well
phrg dom. - the V chord in a minor key of course
mixolydian b6 (5th mode of melodic) - the V chord in a minor key of course

Other then those generalizations though, use them whenever you want.
brainpolice
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Knyq wrote:ok i have been meaning to learn these scales, but i am not sure what chords to use them over and things like that.

-melodic minor (and the modes of it)
-harmonic minor (and the modes of it)
-phrygian dominant (which i think is a mode of one of the above)

can someone help out here? thanks
melodic - the I chord in a minor key of course
harmonic - the I chord in a minor key as well
phrg dom. - the V chord in a minor key of course
mixolydian b6 (5th mode of melodic) - the V chord in a minor key of course

As for their modes - their modes naturally occur anyways. Why worry about it. Like i've said about modes before - you shouldnt be thinking you're forced to play this mode and that mode because a particular chord came up. Its all the same scale anyways. Cheers.
Other then those generalizations though, use them whenever you want.
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Ricardo
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First learn the scales well, then worry about what chords use them. By then you might be able to "see" which chords were born out of a particular scale (diatonic arpeggios). Assuming you have learned the scales, here are some chord ideas:

Melodic minor: Like said before the tonic or root chord if spelled minor/major7. For a minor7(b5) chord, you can use the 6th mode of melodic (example:Bm7b5 use D melodic minor). For a dominant 7th in minor key, you can use the 5th mode (A7 use D mel.min), and for a dom7th#5 you can use the 7th mode (for C#7#5 use D mel. min). This last one is furthur enhanced if you add a #9 to the chord. Also the Dom7thb5 is a nice jazzy one. Again the 7th mode of mel. min or altered scale. (C#7b5 use D mel.min). If you spell it #4 you can use the lydian dominant or 4th mode (G7#4 uses D melodic). There are lots more but these are common. All of these sound "impressionistic" to me. Remember you have other scale opptions for the chords above. Context is important.

Harmonic minor: Again minor/major7 tonic. The phrygian dominant is the same as 5th mode of harmonic min. There is also Spanish phrygian where you can use the minor 7th as a passing tone (so in A minor you can play either G or G# or both over the E7 chord). The diminished 7th chord can use the 7th mode of harmonic minor. (G#dim7 uses A harmonic). The augmented chord you can use the 3rd mode of harmonic (C+ uses A harmonic). Also the min7(#4) chord is cool (Dm7(#4) uses again A harmonic. Have fun man!

Richard
markelia
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PS - use harmonic minor over all tunes by Engelbert Manglesteen. :D
Knyq
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hey thanks for the input. heres another question. i found a cool and quite useful site for finding scales. http://www.cyberfret.com/scales/guitar-codex/index.php

for melodic minor they have ascending and descending. i realize that descending is the same as natural minor... but what is the point of having ascending and descending?


also could someone please list the modes for melodic minor and harmonic minor in order. thanks.
markelia
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When you learn about melodic minor in school, they tell you that traditionally the scale is played with the M6 and M7 ascending (reaching for upward resolution), and played with m6 and m7 descending. This distinction is largely ignored in common practice. In modern usage, if someone says "G melodic minor", they mean G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F#, G.
shader
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I'm not very good at using things other than the church modes, harm. minor and phryg dom, and when i play, i play modally - i.e, one scale for the whole bit, not "this scale over this chord blah blah blah", when i try to play over chords, i just play chromatically - pick the notes that i feel sound right, i have no idea what scale their in. This approach basically lets me pretend to be a jazz player
DeViaTo
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Knyq wrote:ok i have been meaning to learn these scales, but i am not sure what chords to use them over and things like that.

-melodic minor (and the modes of it)
-harmonic minor (and the modes of it)
-phrygian dominant (which i think is a mode of one of the above)

can someone help out here? thanks
hi everybody :-)
well that question is supposed to take several guitar lessons ;P
I can suggest you to find out "improvising made easier" from frank gambale. there you'll find all the answers you need :-D

have fun

gigi
Super_Turd
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DeViaTo wrote:
Knyq wrote:ok i have been meaning to learn these scales, but i am not sure what chords to use them over and things like that.

-melodic minor (and the modes of it)
-harmonic minor (and the modes of it)
-phrygian dominant (which i think is a mode of one of the above)

can someone help out here? thanks
hi everybody :-)
well that question is supposed to take several guitar lessons ;P
I can suggest you to find out "improvising made easier" from frank gambale. there you'll find all the answers you need :-D

have fun

gigi
hey gambales GREAT. i have 2 of his videos and he explains modes in an extreamly simple way and is generally a great teacher ;) (lol at his daffy the duck pink t-shirt he wears)

i love his playing and told my guitar teacher about him. I found out the my guitar teacher studied with frank gambale for a while!! :)


so yeah, im sure his books are just as great as the video, good sujestion.

Todd
DeViaTo
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Super_Turd wrote:
DeViaTo wrote:
Knyq wrote:ok i have been meaning to learn these scales, but i am not sure what chords to use them over and things like that.

-melodic minor (and the modes of it)
-harmonic minor (and the modes of it)
-phrygian dominant (which i think is a mode of one of the above)

can someone help out here? thanks
hi everybody :-)
well that question is supposed to take several guitar lessons ;P
I can suggest you to find out "improvising made easier" from frank gambale. there you'll find all the answers you need :-D

have fun

gigi
hey gambales GREAT. i have 2 of his videos and he explains modes in an extreamly simple way and is generally a great teacher ;) (lol at his daffy the duck pink t-shirt he wears)

i love his playing and told my guitar teacher about him. I found out the my guitar teacher studied with frank gambale for a while!! :)


so yeah, im sure his books are just as great as the video, good sujestion.

Todd
also try Technique Book I and II still from Frank Gambale!
another good source is www.guitaraxis.com :-)

gigi
Super_Turd
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(i have just finished the post, it has taken me about 30 mins to wright hehehe lol, but i strongly suggest you read it and at least give it a try. thank you)


Oh and, the way i see modes is this.

also b4 we start, the modes i think is simply a way of generateing scales.

Basically i like to simplifye everything i do so, to quote miles davis, Learn it, and forget it, which basically meens when your playing you dont want to have to think about wether ure playing over a Gsus4 demented 6th blah blah blah. you want to be expressing yourself.

Ok. I see each mode, simply as a seperate scale. I do not think of modes diatonically to the chords, all that does is confuse things i meen - for christ sakes there the same bloody notes, your just starting(if ure starting on the root) the scale from a different place.
For instance if i have a nice wee diatonic chord progression going

| E | Fm7 | A | E |

so do you all understand that this is a diatonic chord progression??


People who see it diatonically seem to confuse things and would play over it like this:-

| E | Fm7 | A | E |
Emajor F dorian A lydian Emajor

Ok.
at first sight this seems fairly acceptable and logical; each scale for each chord - it all makes sense. The way i would see this is this

| E | Fm7 | A | E |
E fuken major scale ;)


The reason why i would see this as all E is geuse what?
remember this?
| E | Fm7 | A | E |
Emajor F dorian A lydian Emajor


What is Fdorian the same as??
What is Alydian the same as??

Emajor!!

Fdorian A lydian and Emajor have EXACTLY the same notes.

So why confuse things??
Why stumble over the next scale when the next chord comes up wen u can do e major and not worrie about anythign than expressin. The only reason i could imagine people doing this is because they are either a bit confused on the modes, or they want to play off each chord.

If you want to play off each chord, ure still playing Emajor, just accent the chord tones of Fm7 and A.

Hok. ive also noticed gambale uses a similer approach.

The ONLY things u need to learn for This approach are these.

Learn each mode(shape 1 first!) (the modes of the major scale; the normal ones)

Learn what scale degrees the mode is made up of, for example - off the top of my head i know that a dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (when people wrigth out the numbers like that they are simply compareing it to the major scale, ie major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 and for a dorian u take any major scale and flatten the 3rd and 7nd scale degrees)

Leaarn about diatonic chords. (diatonic chords are CHORDS made up wich all consist of notes of the same SCALE) example:-

Gmaj7 and A minor 7. all the notes in both of those chords are in Gmajor scale. Or A dorian! (remember its the same thing!)
To learn this u probobly could type in google diatonic chords, and itll give u at least minor and major and maybe some others if not ask ure teacher!!!!!

Basically all im doing is recodniseing diatonic movement, thus giving me the knowledge that you can use one scale for all.


OK. IF ANYONE GETS CONFUSED WITH TIHS METHOD PRIVATE MESSAGE ME AND ILL GIVE YA A LESSON ON IT ;).



Ok 1 lastthing. people may get confused when things like this happen.

| Fm7 | A | E | E |

Notice that this is EXACTLY THE SAME as our other example, EXCEPT ive moved the chords down a slot each, so im starting on the FM7 then going through the sequense.

If i was to play emajor over this still, it would be partly correct. i shall explain. The notes are perfectly correct. BUT, if in ure head ure thinking emajor emajor emajor emajor, youll natrually end ure lines on an E note, BUT the chord progression on its own feels like it is really at rest on fm7.

OK. i know that emajor is the same as f dorian, yet im acenting E's because im used to it. Well my answer is simply think of it as an Fm7 chord progression and play the whole thiing as Fm7


THIS IS SOME MONSTER POST. (Longest ive done). Ok i REALLY hope this clears some of it up for you guys. Remember Private message me if ure ever confused or if u think my way does or doesnt work. Remember there are SO many ways of seeing modes its amazing. I AM NOT SAYING MY WAY IS THE 'CORRECT' WAY- BUT IT WORKS FOR ME BEST (and others).


Hope this helps

;) give it a try

Todd



Super_Turd
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hehehe forgot 1 thing.

If ure progression Isnt diatonic
for Ex
west coast blues by wes montgomery

Bb 13 |Bb 13 | Ab 13 |Ab 13 | Bb13 |Bb13 | Bm7 | Em9 | Ebm9|.....
Bbmixolydian Abmixolydian Bbmixolydian Bdorian Edorian Ebdorian

basically u almost have to play off each chord seperatey.

my point about the thing on DIATONIC chords is it CAN be simple. with progressions that are undiatonic (in this song especially the Bm7 to Em9) you cant just blag a Bb blues scale, or a Bb mixolydian.

Very last thing. Remember this too:

This is my way of playing 'IN THE BOX'. People say oh i dont needa worrie like this i play out the box alot..

How can u go out the box if u were never in the box??
How can u go out the box if you dont understand the box??

Dont piss in the wind, know what yer doing ;)

Todd
DeViaTo
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Super_Turd wrote:(i have just finished the post, it has taken me about 30 mins to wright hehehe lol, but i strongly suggest you read it and at least give it a try. thank you)


Oh and, the way i see modes is this.

also b4 we start, the modes i think is simply a way of generateing scales.

Basically i like to simplifye everything i do so, to quote miles davis, Learn it, and forget it, which basically meens when your playing you dont want to have to think about wether ure playing over a Gsus4 demented 6th blah blah blah. you want to be expressing yourself.

Ok. I see each mode, simply as a seperate scale. I do not think of modes diatonically to the chords, all that does is confuse things i meen - for christ sakes there the same bloody notes, your just starting(if ure starting on the root) the scale from a different place.
For instance if i have a nice wee diatonic chord progression going

| E | Fm7 | A | E |

so do you all understand that this is a diatonic chord progression??


People who see it diatonically seem to confuse things and would play over it like this:-

| E | Fm7 | A | E |
Emajor F dorian A lydian Emajor

Ok.
at first sight this seems fairly acceptable and logical; each scale for each chord - it all makes sense. The way i would see this is this

| E | Fm7 | A | E |
E fuken major scale ;)


The reason why i would see this as all E is geuse what?
remember this?
| E | Fm7 | A | E |
Emajor F dorian A lydian Emajor


What is Fdorian the same as??
What is Alydian the same as??

Emajor!!

Fdorian A lydian and Emajor have EXACTLY the same notes.

So why confuse things??
Why stumble over the next scale when the next chord comes up wen u can do e major and not worrie about anythign than expressin. The only reason i could imagine people doing this is because they are either a bit confused on the modes, or they want to play off each chord.

If you want to play off each chord, ure still playing Emajor, just accent the chord tones of Fm7 and A.

Hok. ive also noticed gambale uses a similer approach.

The ONLY things u need to learn for This approach are these.

Learn each mode(shape 1 first!) (the modes of the major scale; the normal ones)

Learn what scale degrees the mode is made up of, for example - off the top of my head i know that a dorian = 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 (when people wrigth out the numbers like that they are simply compareing it to the major scale, ie major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 and for a dorian u take any major scale and flatten the 3rd and 7nd scale degrees)

Leaarn about diatonic chords. (diatonic chords are CHORDS made up wich all consist of notes of the same SCALE) example:-

Gmaj7 and A minor 7. all the notes in both of those chords are in Gmajor scale. Or A dorian! (remember its the same thing!)
To learn this u probobly could type in google diatonic chords, and itll give u at least minor and major and maybe some others if not ask ure teacher!!!!!

Basically all im doing is recodniseing diatonic movement, thus giving me the knowledge that you can use one scale for all.


OK. IF ANYONE GETS CONFUSED WITH TIHS METHOD PRIVATE MESSAGE ME AND ILL GIVE YA A LESSON ON IT ;).



Ok 1 lastthing. people may get confused when things like this happen.

| Fm7 | A | E | E |

Notice that this is EXACTLY THE SAME as our other example, EXCEPT ive moved the chords down a slot each, so im starting on the FM7 then going through the sequense.

If i was to play emajor over this still, it would be partly correct. i shall explain. The notes are perfectly correct. BUT, if in ure head ure thinking emajor emajor emajor emajor, youll natrually end ure lines on an E note, BUT the chord progression on its own feels like it is really at rest on fm7.

OK. i know that emajor is the same as f dorian, yet im acenting E's because im used to it. Well my answer is simply think of it as an Fm7 chord progression and play the whole thiing as Fm7


THIS IS SOME MONSTER POST. (Longest ive done). Ok i REALLY hope this clears some of it up for you guys. Remember Private message me if ure ever confused or if u think my way does or doesnt work. Remember there are SO many ways of seeing modes its amazing. I AM NOT SAYING MY WAY IS THE 'CORRECT' WAY- BUT IT WORKS FOR ME BEST (and others).


Hope this helps

;) give it a try

Todd
well this is IMHO a little semplicistic (is that word correct in english?)!
well ok they're the same note in this case, but you may want to put more enphasis on certain notes (i mean the triad) so you can say you are playing "modal".... :-P

but let's see the chord progression that way... it's a blues, where the key is E, A is the V degree and F#min7 (i suppose it's F#m7 and not Fm7 as you wrote).
well in this case you will play E mixolidian over E, change scale to Epentatonic/Eblues over A ! ... so what is i play F# dorian scale over F#min7? :-)

gigi
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