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A few self-taught problems
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Author:  nasierszyca [ Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  A few self-taught problems

Hi :)

I am from Poland, I use google translator so I hope that what I want to say will be understood :D

Here are some of my troubles.

Problem number 1


How can I create chord progression
which has to rely on emphasize character/mood of chosen scale?

How it looks chords progression (in the key of C major)
with ionian mood and how it looks chords progression with phrygian mood
(in the key of C major/e minor -efgabcd-)??

Each scale has its own characteristic chord progression?
There is such a thing as "phrygian progression" etc?


I dont understand how create ionian progression,dorian progression ,phrygian progression etc

Scale have own mood because of characteristic notes but how about progression.


Let's take this progressions:

Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | G7 | - what mood we have here?
This is ionian progression,lyidian or mixolydian?
Which mood(of which mode/scale) is emphasized in this progression?And why?


What if play like this Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | C7 |
Now it is lydian progression?

C7 is dominant for Fmaj7 ,but chord C7 contains non-diatonic note a# (for key of C).

And final question:
- how to keep character of chosen mode in progression, using modal interchange ?



Problem number 2

We have seven diatonic chords within one key.
Only one diatonic dominant V which determines tonal center I.

Other chords ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii - how to determine each of them as a tonal center
they have only non-diatonic dominants.

In the key of C we have:
G7|Cmaj -diatonic

A7|Dm
B7|Em
C7|Fmaj
D7|G
E7|Am - (also diatonic but in harmonic minor)
F#7| B dim.

What's next?

A7 to Dm is dorian move,or C#7 to Dm is more "dorianish"...or *Eb7 to Dm?

* triton substitution for non-diatonic A7 chord,in the key of C.


In reference to the problem 1

Someone told me that in natural scale cdefgab
we have two characteristic notes f & b for all modes
with exception of lydian (b & e) and locrian (c & f).

But

Problem number 3

how about harmonic: cdef g# ab
and melodic: cde f# g# ab?

Which notes are characteristic here?

In harmonic "ionian #4" scale (cdefg#ab)
we have three characteristic notes f,b and g#?

These three notes (f,b,g#) are characteristic for other inversions
(defg#abc/efg#abcd/fg#abcde etc)?

And on the same principle in melodic (cde f# g# ab )
we have three characteristic notes f#,b and g# for all seven modes?
Nothing changes?

What we can do with scales (f# g# abcde) and (g# abcde f#)?

BONUS Problem number 4

Scales, each of them is a sequence of appropriate intervals, one after the other.
What we do when we want to hear ionian scale/mode/mood?
We play W W H W W W H ascending

BUT

when we play the same notes descending what we play?
H W W W H W W and this is NOT ionian sequence :)
it is PHRYGIAN, right?


So,which scale we should play up and down to stay in ionian mood/mode?
ionian - ascending
dorian - descending

Unfortunately, staying with the root note we will change the key...do you have any thoughts about this???

Author:  nasierszyca [ Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few self-taught problems

25082 members,50 views,0 answers...I'm astonished :shock:
Nobody has knowledge needed to help me?

Author:  Jeries [ Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few self-taught problems

I can... and I will
but a full response will probably take me an hour- but I will get back to you

Author:  Jeries [ Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few self-taught problems

First a little about my background- I studied classical piano when I was 4… picked up guitar at age 13- and was self taught- around 15/16 started going back and learning the right way- studying theory etc… I studied tons of theory and orchestration. I’d say I got pretty good at guitar but really backed away from the crazy fast guitar stuff to focus more on songs/songwriting and that’s more what I’m going after now than Steve Vai stuff.

How can I create chord progression
which has to rely on emphasize character/mood of chosen scale?


So what is a song- legally speaking it’s words and music
What is music in a song? Typically the chords.
A song is 50% words and 50% music
And typically all the melody in the world doesn’t matter- what technically really counts is the chord progression.
SO- to me the first thing to create is the chord progression
The scale and solo and even mood really doesn’t matter- the most important thing and first step SHOULD be the chord progression
You can write riffs or ideas but the immediate step would be finding the right chords behind it.
Once you have those chords then you can use your bag of tricks to write and create and do all the scales and melodies you can imagine.
But I would never pick a SCALE to play in before a chord progression
Of course you can pick the key to play and write in but the chords should come first then you can create the melody- I think too often guitarists do it the other way around… they write solo solo solo solo solo and don’t pay attention to what’s behind it.
OR
They try to write chords to find some lead stuff- where- they could have came up with a stronger lead or melody or solo if the progression was done first.


How it looks chords progression (in the key of C major)
with ionian mood and how it looks chords progression with phrygian mood
(in the key of C major/e minor -efgabcd-)??

Each scale has its own characteristic chord progression?
There is such a thing as "phrygian progression" etc?


YES it is possible but it’s more about how you present things than anything else.
(E minor has an F# and e Phrygian would have an F natural)


I dont understand how create ionian progression,dorian progression ,phrygian progression etc

Scale have own mood because of characteristic notes but how about progression.


I think 99% of guitarist that learn modes don’t understand them right-
I think you’re looking at them wrong.
A scale is a grouped together series of notes
You can have a 5 note scale (pentatonic)
You can have a 12 note scale (chromatic)
It’s just how you organize them
SO most western music has 7 note scales (with the 8th/octave on top)
Most common… most loved…most happy is the major scale C D E F G A B C
It takes advantage of the fact that a piano has two natural half steps between B and C and E and F- because of that- no sharps/no flats makes life easy and it sounds good- also easy to play- just hit the white keys on a piano- problem solved.
The concept of a mode is basically saying- we’re going to take the notes of a particular scale and start them on different degrees to create a different sense and different mood. OR to bring things out you wouldn’t normally hear- whatever.
If you play a C scale starting on D and go D to D in stead of C- dorian mode
E-E with the notes of C major- it’s phrygian
Important point:
MUSIC IS IN THE EARS OF THE LISTENERS
If you are playing a melody over an E minor chord- and you play only the notes E G A B C D
I wouldn’t know if you were playing in E minor in the melody or E phrygian in the melody- and it really doesn’t matter.
If you’re analyzing music it does- but you can analyze it anyway you want.
If there’s a Steve Vai song in 7/8 – if I want to transcribe it- in 4/4 followed by 3-4 and back and fourth over and over again- I can- might not be easiest but- once music becomes sound- the music and notes and written stuff is subjective.
If you write a song in the key of A and I want to write the entire song out in the key of F# with tons of accidentals (#’s and b’s and natural signs everywhere) I could- wouldn’t make sense or be easy- but it could be done.
You could play over a C progression an E phry scale- it’s the same notes but it’s really up to you in the key you want to do it in.
SO- with modes it’s really about what you reveal in the notes you choose that really make the key matter- you can play any notes you want and do anything- but when I look at Vai’s music- some things might have a certain dorian feel or emphasis at times- but it’s really it’s power to emphasize these things- how he plays and phrases and chooses the notes… So- if he’s playing in E minor and focusing on the sad stuff and the E as a pedal tone ( note that the melody focuses on) then we know what he’s doing- if he’s playing all over E minor but it doesn’t sound sad and it’s all around G’s and D’s and happy- maybe it’s G major- you’re like the magician showing us the trick but if we imagine how you did the trick- we can- you can’t stop us- but you should do a good job melodically showing us what you want to and are doing to paint the right picture.


Let's take this progressions:

Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | G7 | - what mood we have here?
This is ionian progression,lyidian or mixolydian?
Which mood(of which mode/scale) is emphasized in this progression?And why?


The chords really don’t define that- it’s how we interpret everything together- everything on top of it- the big picture

What if play like this Cmaj7 | Fmaj7 | C7 |
Now it is lydian progression?

C7 is dominant for Fmaj7 ,but chord C7 contains non-diatonic note a# (for key of C).


Wrong wrong wrong--- The key of F has one flat- Bb- you would never call it in a million years A#- C7 is the V7 of F major C E G Bb
This is where people say ‘oh you’re being rude for no reason A# is the same’- no it’s not- absolutely not the same in this case- this is where the way we write and say things matter- sure A# sounds like Bb but in the key of F no way
This could or would be more like a borrowed chord- like- you can take a chord from another key and change it up where it fits- it’s common with 7th chords.
BUT there is no reference until you give more info- play more notes- put a solo or melody on top
It’s like a math problem where the answer is ‘not enough information’
Math Problem- If Car A is going 50 mph and Car B is going 60 miles an hour… how far is Car C going? There is not enough information given to answer.
SO just taking chords- even from borrowed keys C7 Cmaj7 there is not enough information there to really see the big picture of what’s going on… and if you put guitar or a keyboard on top of it playing then you can- but that’s the composers job to emphasize what they want to hear and feel- etc


And final question:
- how to keep character of chosen mode in progression, using modal interchange ?


My advice to this is focus on the song- the beatles didn’t even know there were notes besides E G A D and when they learned the B7 chord it blew their mind- they put it in everything- they learned that from another band/guy that played guitar in another town…
Guitarists use pedal tones (a note that you go back to often or always go back to) to hint at keys and mods- and there is certain playing and emphasis to focus on to get your point across- but really- just focus on the sound and that you’re writing good material and a strong melody than how to stay in a mode you want to sound like you’re in-
Modes are made to be broken- that’s the entire point of a mode- to use the same notes but change the emphasis and get different things in there- and it’s all ok even better if it sounds good!


Problem number 2

We have seven diatonic chords within one key.
Only one diatonic dominant V which determines tonal center I.

Other chords ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii - how to determine each of them as a tonal center
they have only non-diatonic dominants.


It’s not a vii it’s a viio- it matters

In the key of C we have:
G7|Cmaj -diatonic

A7|Dm
B7|Em
C7|Fmaj
D7|G
E7|Am - (also diatonic but in harmonic minor)
F#7| B dim.

What's next?

A7 to Dm is dorian move,or C#7 to Dm is more "dorianish"...or *Eb7 to Dm?

* triton substitution for non-diatonic A7 chord,in the key of C.



I think you’re borrowing a little too much from other places
If you’re in D dorian- D E F G A B C D
The 5th is A- it’s a minor chord
What I think you’re doing is going to the relative major keys of each scale degree
So D major is D E F# G A B C# D
The A7 in that- would be A C# E G
Even in D minor it would be the same A7
SO nothing is ‘dorianish’
You’re just taking 7th chords from other keys to me- it’s more chord progression related to mode related… and it’s really more a matter of borrowing chords from other keys
I think this is really a matter of secondary dominants than is a mode related thing


In reference to the problem 1

Someone told me that in natural scale cdefgab
we have two characteristic notes f & b for all modes
with exception of lydian (b & e) and locrian (c & f).


I really don’t understand what’s going on here
I don’t get it- the F lydian and B Locrian have the same notes and everything as C major
I’m lost


But

Problem number 3

how about harmonic: cdef g# ab
and melodic: cde f# g# ab?

Which notes are characteristic here?

In harmonic "ionian #4" scale (cdefg#ab)
we have three characteristic notes f,b and g#?

These three notes (f,b,g#) are characteristic for other inversions
(defg#abc/efg#abcd/fg#abcde etc)?

And on the same principle in melodic (cde f# g# ab )
we have three characteristic notes f#,b and g# for all seven modes?
Nothing changes?

What we can do with scales (f# g# abcde) and (g# abcde f#)?


I don’t think you’re using modes right or I don’t get what you’re asking and trying to explain
Modes are just playing the same notes of a key starting on different scale degrees
If I wanna play the 6th degree of C- A to A of the notes of the key of C
I can… A B C D E F G A
It’s the A aeolian scale (aka A minor)
I don’t know of like an ionian #4 scale- I don’t understand most of this
I don’t know if you’re confusing some sort of natural minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor thing… but you need some more work in this.


BONUS Problem number 4

Scales, each of them is a sequence of appropriate intervals, one after the other.
What we do when we want to hear ionian scale/mode/mood?
We play W W H W W W H ascending

BUT

when we play the same notes descending what we play?
H W W W H W W and this is NOT ionian sequence
it is PHRYGIAN, right?


NO NO NO NO NO
I see your point though
DECENDING is different
You can’t really compare acceding to descending with the half steps and whole steps
There’s rules and music stuff about this
SO I understand what you mean- but the fact that the notes decend you can’t compare
Look at intervals- going up C G is a Perfect 5th
Going down G to C is a Perfect 4th
But since you’re going DOWN you can’t look at it as a perfect 5th going down
Music has rules
SO
If descending it has a certain pattern- to consider it- you have to look at it ascending
The only exception is the melodic minor scale that ascending is one way and descending is another


So,which scale we should play up and down to stay in ionian mood/mode?
ionian - ascending
dorian - descending

Unfortunately, staying with the root note we will change the key...do you have any thoughts about this???


I wouldn’t look at it like this- but I see your point- read above
The notes need to be looked together as a whole- then analyzed so- you would typically only try to only interpret it acceding for any analysis purpose.

Ok
Any questions!?

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