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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:33 pm 
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The problem is that learning is a continuous process that requires constant pursuit, and some people don't like that fact and want to give in rather than persist in their learning. Pronouncing things as useless is one of the biggest and most common cop outs out there. It's almost just another way for the anti-theory people to dismiss learning theory as an unhelpful waste of time, or even as something that will hurt your playing and therefore perhaps best avoided altogether.

I'm not saying that's what anybody here is doing right now. I'm just saying it as a general observation that's worth considering and thinking about. There are many layers to the learning onion. Hasty dismissal could be a huge mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Jeries wrote:
I studied orchestration/theory/composition at 2 universities and have done a lot of things guitar wise...


WOW!!!!! :roll:

Jeries wrote:
Scales=solo better…


Learning scales doesn't mean your solos will necessarily be better. I've heard a lot of players that spent a lot of time practicing scales and many of their solos sound like mindless scale exercises.

Jeries wrote:
Now this is how I see modes in playing. First off I don’t like 7th chords- I think almost all 7th chords sound dissonant (except dom7) and rarely use 7th chords 9th 11th chords.


Weird. So you think a major 7th chord sounds dissonant? I don't think many people would agree with your opinion. Do you avoid 7th notes in your single note improvisations because they sound dissonant against triad based progressions? Sorry, but I don't follow your logic.

Jeries wrote:
The way I apply my knowledge of modes on the guitar is thru major scales. So I’m always thinking major when messing with modes because that’s what they are. If I know where I’m at on the guitar and what I’m doing and where I am and what I’m trying to do. I don’t need to think finger positions and chart dots if I want to play E Phrygian… I just think g major… make sense?


If you're playing E Phrygian, why would you think G major? B Phrygian is part of the G major scale and E Phrygian is part of the C major scale. Also, thinking in major can be good for visualizing diatonic patterns when practicing, but it doesn't make a lot of musical sense.

Jeries wrote:
Jazz people tend to apply scales to certain extended chords.. like chords that have 7’s and numbers in it and aren’t just minor and major… those scales have certain charictestics- sound good and are a good go to guide for OH I have a CWHATEVERTHEHELLcomplex@#$*&@#$ chord so I should play F locrian… and stuff like that…
In rock music I don’t think any of that applies.


It does apply to rock music, just not as extensively as in jazz.

Jeries wrote:
… be able to know what scale degree/note youre on at all times.


This is fine for practice, but when improvising/jamming, it can prove to be quite a laborious and inhibitive thing. Play from the heart and analyze what you played later.

Jeries wrote:
But most of all do what sounds good.


I agree.

Jeries wrote:
2. on the other hand look at rock music what we have? Power chords


Uh, there's a lot more chord types in rock than just power chords.

Jeries wrote:
I’ll I’ve fought on this bored 1000 times about how THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS is useless. And to a guitarist it is, theres better ways of learning the material on it and doesn’t do anything.


That's your opinion. Others have differing opinions of the usefulness of the circle of fifths, but it doesn't mean they're empirically wrong because you said so.

Jeries wrote:
So modes are good to know and practice but there isn’t laws saying you cant play D dorian over A major or whatever…


You can't play D Dorian over A Major. Sure you can superimpose the D Dorian pattern over A major, but you wouldn't hear D Dorian, so you can't really call it that and you can't really say you're playing D Dorian over A Major. Your statement is misleading.


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:20 pm 
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Instead of using quotes in the forum I’ll just quote in a txt document your quotes to make it a bit easier to reply to all of them….

“Learning scales doesn't mean your solos will necessarily be better“Yes it does- scales=solo/play better. Simply… here is an example- an amateur guitar player would struggle trying to site read a tab lets say of the middle pretty harmony solo to Metallica Master of Puppets… if they knew their scales well- it wouldn’t be a struggle because everything in the solo is there.
I was teaching someone who was struggling to learn that solo and they’d hit off notes constantly- if he knew his scales he wouldn’t be hitting those notes accidentally.
This goes to mostly all music/solos for the most part- if you know the scales you can learn them easier because you will be able to identify the exact notes that come from somewhere else and play accordingly in the scale.
“I've heard a lot of players that spent a lot of time practicing scales and many of their solos sound like mindless scale exercises.”I’ve heard a lot of guitar players do EVERYTHING and in some way make it sound shitty and awful. A crappy guitarist is a crappy guitarist,
If someone’s solos sound like mindless scale exercises than they’re not applying what they know/learned correctly.

“Weird. So you think a major 7th chord sounds dissonant? I don't think many people would agree with your opinion. Do you avoid 7th notes in your single note improvisations because they sound dissonant against triad based progressions? Sorry, but I don't follow your logic.”I think 7th chords sound dissonant in chord progressions.
Steve Vai would disagree with me, so would any jazz musician
I’m not saying you cant hit the 7th degree over a chord at any point- I just think chords that get into the 7th, 9th, 11+ sound mostly shitty… although depending on the voicings things can sound quite good at points.. but the chord progressions I compose rarely have a 7th chord ever, if it does it would be like a dom7 (-V7-I- kinda thing)

“If you're playing E Phrygian, why would you think G major? B Phrygian is part of the G major scale and E Phrygian is part of the C major scale. Also, thinking in major can be good for visualizing diatonic patterns when practicing, but it doesn't make a lot of musical sense.”Actually I made a mistake… I would be thinking in C major.
If I was playing E Phrygian I would be thinking in C major…. Not G major… G major would make no sense
I think I said G cuz the relative major of E minor is G major… but I didn’t mean G

It does apply to rock music, just not as extensively as in jazz.
In a world where 99% of the success is going to people who have no idea what they are doing musically yet becoming quite successful, legendary and selling billions of albums- it really doesn’t apply. Kurt Cobain, Lennon/McCartney, Ramones, theres millions… they really didn’t know what they were doing in some ways

This is fine for practice, but when improvising/jamming, it can prove to be quite a laborious and inhibitive thing. Play from the heart and analyze what you played later.
It might be hard and difficult but with enough practice its just there- its definatly something to strive for in actually knowing what you’re doing while you’re playing

Uh, there's a lot more chord types in rock than just power chords.
There are, true; but Power Chords in rock music sell more music than G# 13 b9 Chords
You’re typical amateur guitarist doesn’t know there are 5 forms of moveable chords on the guitar…

That's your opinion. Others have differing opinions of the usefulness of the circle of fifths, but it doesn't mean they're empirically wrong because you said so.
1. My opinion is the best and only one that matters to me in most cases.
2. On the guitar- it IS useless. Everything is moveable tell a trumpet player you only have to learn one thing to be able to play all 12 major scales and within 1 min of touching the instrument can play the highest and lowest note on it.

You can't play D Dorian over A Major. Sure you can superimpose the D Dorian pattern over A major, but you wouldn't hear D Dorian, so you can't really call it that and you can't really say you're playing D Dorian over A Major. Your statement is misleading.

You can play anything you want, you can do anything what you want- but your intentions don’t matter. Its how it is interpreted and heard by others what is important.

I could write out anything in any key signature and in any time signature- it wont look pretty but I can.
Once something is out there musically, unless someone gets the sheet music you transcribed for it- its no longer in your hands.

You could analyze classical music all day different ways- transcribing something with a key change, or what do you call this note a passing tone or an appogitoura… whatever….

You can call anything whatever you want-

BUT… I’ve grown a lot as a guitarist and musician and have learned it doesn’t matter… none of this I said above matters, means anything or is important-
There is one thing that matters; write a good song.

Good songs are what matters, the rest is useless.
The people that don’t want to be songwriters still can use the ‘good song’ idea, in what they play and write and what is there behind whatever they’re playing over or soloing on

Anything can be a good song, a Beatles song, a Vai song- a song not even in English or one without even words.
This improve stuff and scales and stuff don’t mean shit if you cant write a good song with it.
I see so much awful crap out there its horrifying.
(I’m not making a comment of like whats on the radio ect, more about the people that want to start bands and be in bands and crash and burn and wonder why they didn’t go anywhere- they didn’t have good songs/strong material)

I don’t think Paul McCartney has ever heard of a ‘german augmented 6th chord’
He just wrote good songs, the end


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:18 am 
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“Learning scales doesn't mean your solos will necessarily be better“

Jeries wrote:
Yes it does- scales=solo/play better. Simply… here is an example- an amateur guitar player would struggle trying to site read a tab lets say of the middle pretty harmony solo to Metallica Master of Puppets… if they knew their scales well- it wouldn’t be a struggle because everything in the solo is there. I was teaching someone who was struggling to learn that solo and they’d hit off notes constantly- if he knew his scales he wouldn’t be hitting those notes accidentally.


That's absurd. That's like saying, "Hey Bill, I know you've never hunted a day in your life, but here are a bunch of guns and the best hunting gear money can buy. Now go fetch me a trophy buck by sundown!" You could know a thousand scales, but that doesn't mean you can lay down a tasty solo.

“I've heard a lot of players that spent a lot of time practicing scales and many of their solos sound like mindless scale exercises.”

Jeries wrote:
I’ve heard a lot of guitar players do EVERYTHING and in some way make it sound shitty and awful. A crappy guitarist is a crappy guitarist, If someone’s solos sound like mindless scale exercises than they’re not applying what they know/learned correctly.


That, or they aren't talented, make poor note choices, don't have the techniques down, have cheesy vibrato, phrasing is bland etc etc etc....Doesn't at all mean they didn't practice scales properly if they don't know how to solo.

This is fine for practice, but when improvising/jamming, it can prove to be quite a laborious and inhibitive thing. Play from the heart and analyze what you played later.

Jeries wrote:
It might be hard and difficult but with enough practice its just there- its definatly something to strive for in actually knowing what you’re doing while you’re playing


How could you possibly be aware of every single note name, for example, when playing a live improvised solo at 160 bpm? :lol: I've done quite a bit of live jamming and improv over the past 20 years or so of playing, but I never once thought about what specific note I was on. I just played what I felt. Pro musicians do not think about notes, intervals and modes etc when they play live. They are just playing what they hear in their mind's ear rather than worrying about patterns or whether an Eb Hirajoshi scale will work over the changes. Work on ear training and transcribing rather than just scale and arpeggio patterns and I guarantee you'll be a better player for it.

Uh, there's a lot more chord types in rock than just power chords.

Jeries wrote:
There are, true; but Power Chords in rock music sell more music than G# 13 b9 Chords.


Bullocks. Tell that to Led Zeppelin, SRV, the Beatles, Oasis, Red Hot Chili Peppers etc etc etc etc.. ad nauseum. They would have been far less interesting and popular bands if they had only used triads and power chords in their songs. Anyways, It's not the power chords that sell the songs, it's the whole composition, including the vocals, rhythm, harmonies, lyrics etc. The power chords add to the song just as all of the other numerous components do, but to say they are solely responsible for selling more music than other chords is frankly quite silly. I don't base my compositions on how many albums I want to sell, otherwise it would be quite a superficial reason to be a guitar player.

That's your opinion. Others have differing opinions of the usefulness of the circle of fifths, but it doesn't mean they're empirically wrong because you said so.

Jeries wrote:
2. On the guitar- it IS useless. Everything is moveable tell a trumpet player you only have to learn one thing to be able to play all 12 major scales and within 1 min of touching the instrument can play the highest and lowest note on it.


That might be true if the Circle of Fifths was solely used for transposing positions as you infer. It is used on the guitar to help in modulating to different keys, finding related keys, recognizing key signatures, determining chord patterns, etc. I think you reject it because you don't fully comprehend it.

You can't play D Dorian over A Major. Sure you can superimpose the D Dorian pattern over A major, but you wouldn't hear D Dorian, so you can't really call it that and you can't really say you're playing D Dorian over A Major. Your statement is misleading.

Jeries wrote:
You can play anything you want, you can do anything what you want- but your intentions don’t matter. Its how it is interpreted and heard by others what is important.


Right, and I don't think you really understood what I said pertaining to your previous example. If you can't hear D Dorian, you aren't playing D Dorian. Modes only work and can only be heard within the confines of a specific harmony, eg, you won't hear the Dorian sound over a major 7th chord, just the same as you wouldn't hear Mixolydian over a min7b5. Sure you can play anything you want, but you emphasize knowing your stuff, and if you tell someone you are playing D Dorian over A major, they would probably laugh at you, because D Dorian doesn't exist within the diatonic confines of A Major.

Jeries wrote:
Good songs are what matters, the rest is useless.


I would agree that good songs are what matters but I don't agree that the rest is useless. "The rest" comprises all the components that contribute to the qualitative aspects of the song being considered as good or great, but if one or more of these components is lacking, it can turn a great song into a good song, or a good song into a terrible song. You'd have a hard time making a great jambalaya without the proper ingredients and an able cook. :guitar


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