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 Post subject: Modes
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:06 pm 
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hi all
a question about modes. would you play a A Dorian over a G major or would you play a G Dorian. i have read contradicting articles.

the first plays A Dorian over a G major chord
http://guitar.about.com/library/weekly/aa052001c.htm

the second plays D Dorian over a D minor chord.
http://gosk.com/scales/dorian-scale-for-guitar.php

the first says by starting on different notes eg: 2 (Dorian) it changes the way the note sounds but really the notes are the same.

the second says it will sound D Dorian when played over a D minor chord.
thanks
mike


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:12 pm 
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It's all about sound.

A-dorian got the same notes as G-major so when you just look at note names
in the two scales, it's just the same.

But when you use your ears, A-dorian is someting very different from G-major.
If A-dorian is played against a A root and G-major is played against a G root.

I would say it is very wrong to think of playing in A-dorian when you are
playing G-major. But if that works for you, just go that way.

My advice, record a G drone note that last e.g 3 minutes.
And try to play some G-major scale stuff over that.
You should hear the "major sound".
Then play some G-dorian scale stuff and you should hear the "dorian sound". A new world.
Then play G-mixolydian, a new sound/world again.
And so keep going with all kind of scales, they are all from different worlds.

I know many people like to think of major whatever mode they are really playing.
Because they know how to play in the "major box".

But when you one day later are gone play a G#-Egyptian/Indian/or whatever not church mode scale
what major scale box are you then gone use? There are no one to use because you are not
playing any church modes. So the only way to go is to learn the scale, the structure, the intervals and
the sound. Trust your ears. Practice practice practice, no simple easy way.
Well you could maybe sell your soul to the devil, but I would prefer hard work :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:54 pm 
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thanks for the response. its exactly what i was thinking. i have done that, i recorded E and played E Phrygian and like the website says it sounds Phrygian. now what happens when you have a chord progression say in Em. will E Phrygian work for the whole of the progression or will you need to pick and choose the mode/scale or maybe just stick with Em. i guess that if Em will work over a Em progression then E Phrygian will as well. what do you think.


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:20 pm 
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I studied orchestration/theory/composition at 2 universities and have done a lot of things guitar wise...

my thoughts on modes in your particular situation...

Fuck it... write a song...
write a genuinely good song, strong material...a good song doesnt require the what scale is allowed to be played here... i dont think john lennon ever heard of the word phrygian.

to elaborate on your real question...

An A dorian is the same as a G major scale
playing A dorian over G major is the same as playing G major over G major the only way to interpriate as A dorian would be the intense intense exageration of A melodically over the G base which would sound very bad and unpleasent hearing A non stop over a G-

if i solo'd with lots of A's over a G major scale it would create like a Sus2 chord constantly and be 'ungood' but a better word would be not as strong as other things you could chose to play there.

D dorian and D minor... arent that far apart the D dorian scale has no flats and the D minor scale has 2 notes... so out of the 7 different notes 5 are the same... so the 2 flats Bb and Eb would be the only ones out of place and using B and E may create passing tones or other melodic interestingness so it wouldnt be that bad either way.

but overall i think you may be looking at modes wrong and using them the wrong way...

but its my opinion and i'm an ahole
i think below i'll make another reply explaining modes my way


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:27 pm 
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ok ill have a read


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:53 pm 
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OK…here goes…
Jeries’ thoughts on mode for most guitarists…
Guitar has some advantages and disadvantages musically…
It is very difficult to learn all 12 scales on trumpet in 2 octaves… let alone the skill to play in that range and register. I would say even for the above average high school trumpet player it takes til they’re in maybe 11th grade before they can hit a high C and be able to play scales in that range)
But with guitar not only beginners can play scales, they can do so and not have a clue what they’re doing. Guitar is amazing because it’s all movable. So where playing the D major scale on trumpet and C# scale on trumpet is difficult, guitar it only requires moving fingers centimeters and doing the same again.
Guitars like to be cool, and lead guitar and solo’s where all the fun is… people want to solo
And people want to solo better- so people think
Scales=solo better…
And that’s true
Then they hear about MODES
And they think modes= solo better and I’d say that’s not true.
Before you can use modes you should know what they are.
We have something called a Major Scale, it consist of 7 different notes and has been around hundreds of years. It sounds good to us and even non musical people understand the major scale, can identify it and our ears develop with a keen-ness almost to it.

A mode is simply taking a degree in a major scale and playing it within the notes of the major scale up to its octave.
Modes aren’t their own invention they are only based off major scales.
So when we see dot fretboard charts of scales and they’re labeled Phrygian and Locrian we may learn them but we do the wrong way, because most don’t know what they are- and before you learn them you should know how they’re created.
So the best way to see modes isn’t on charts with dots is really to understand how they’re made off major scales.

Now this is how I see modes in playing. First off I don’t like 7th chords- I think almost all 7th chords sound dissonant (except dom7) and rarely use 7th chords 9th 11th chords. I will use sus4 chords maybe a sus2 and maybe a dom7 but never anything complex… I don’t like those Emajor 13 b5 chords.
The way I apply my knowledge of modes on the guitar is thru major scales. So I’m always thinking major when messing with modes because that’s what they are. If I know where I’m at on the guitar and what I’m doing and where I am and what I’m trying to do. I don’t need to think finger positions and chart dots if I want to play E Phrygian… I just think g major… make sense?

Jazz people tend to apply scales to certain extended chords.. like chords that have 7’s and numbers in it and aren’t just minor and major… those scales have certain charictestics- sound good and are a good go to guide for OH I have a CWHATEVERTHEHELLcomplex@#$*&@#$ chord so I should play F locrian… and stuff like that…
In rock music I don’t think any of that applies.
When I listen to Metallica I hear the song I don’t see sheet music with a key signature- so music is interpreted by those who listen to it. What I mean by that is many progressions or songs may come off ambiguous and different than you intended musically theoretically but really its just the way it sounds.

I could write a song in F major (one flat Bb) and not have one Bb in it and have accidentals/natural sign on every Bb to make it B natural the entire song… and have the song built around C as a pedal and all the chords based off C- if I had the sheet music I’d see F, but if I were hearing it or even analizing the music I would see its in C not F.
So overall this is where were at. Modes are made of major scales. And are just scales we create from major scales starting at one note and going to its octave in the pattern of the major scale.
I wouldn’t think of D dorian as…
Wholestep-halfstep-wholestep-wholestep-wholestep-halfstep-wholestep
I would think of d dorian as…
Ok D dorian hmm what scale has D as the second scale degree…oh ok C major…
Lets see C major has no sharps and no flats…
So the D dorian scale would be DEFGABCD
Because in all scales every letter must be represented and follow the order of sharps and flats (FCGDAEB/BEADGFC)

And if I were playing guitar and learned something and remembered ‘ oh I read somewhere d dorian sounds good with XXXchord’ I would think of the pattern and notes of C major and just be aware of where I am.
Try to practice that its hard… be able to know what scale degree/note youre on at all times.

But most of all do what sounds good.
This story my friends still talk about… high school…senior year…AP music theory class we had to write a choral… my friend asked me ‘hey let me send you mine let me know what you think of it- it has tons of secondary functions the teachers going to love it and be impressed’ (secondary functions are chords borrowed from other keys and only sound good when used properly and well)
The choral sounded AWFUL and got a horrible grade for it. Its been 6 yrs and I still make fun of him because of it

So do what sounds good. In music theres no rules- theres things that have been messed with for hundreds of years and we learn typically sound good… so its good to follow them or at least KNOW THEM.
But you can do whatever you want.

Here’s 2 more examples that show you theories good and theories bad….
1. a singer of mine was writing a bassline to a song on piano I wrote and insisted on having the bass play over one of the chords the 3rd. and without even hearing it I knew it would sound bad. In theory you never put the third in the bass, root first if you can 5th if you have to or want it to sound like that but avoid the third at all costs, in fact avoid doubling the third at all costs- let alone have it IN THE BASS… he insisted it might sound good and try it and I told him they learned hundreds of years ago it sounds bad and is awful… I was right it sounded terrible.
2. on the other hand look at rock music what we have? Power chords
Look at Bush mashine head just for example- in theory theres something called parallelism and its really bad and a sign of bad writing and bad voiceleading and a big NO NO. finale even has a plug in that finds it for you in hopes you can think of a better part/progression to avoid parallelism. All rock music is made of parrellism and bush machine head is all parallelism- I love the song- it sounds great- one of the best rules ever but if I handed it to a professor he’d shoot me.
So do what sounds good… but know the stuff- and why its there and what it does
I’ll I’ve fought on this bored 1000 times about how THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS is useless. And to a guitarist it is, theres better ways of learning the material on it and doesn’t do anything.

So modes are good to know and practice but there isn’t laws saying you cant play D dorian over A major or whatever…
Do what sounds good…
Most of all focus on the song it self- write strong material and then get rich and famous

The end.
Any questions?


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:59 pm 
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let me have a read and some time to digest it. thanks ill get back soon. thanks again


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:23 pm 
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i think the key is like you say if it sounds good use it. im a big ace frehley fan, i think most if not all his solos are using pentatonic scale!
so thanks again


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Let me agree and correct something
Ace, ACDC/Angus Young, Jimmy Page all base their solos on the pentatonic scale...
so get familar with it and love it

hell...the first part of the Stairway solo is all in the pentaontic position and you dont even need to move your hands to play it....

the correction is the pentatonic scale (a scale with 5 notes) that we see in music like above is the MINOR PENTATONIC SCALE.

have fun


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:45 pm 
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Even For The Love Of God is based on pentatonic stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:37 pm 
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linebacker wrote:
hi all
a question about modes. would you play a A Dorian over a G major or would you play a G Dorian. i have read contradicting articles.

the first plays A Dorian over a G major chord
http://guitar.about.com/library/weekly/aa052001c.htm


Actually it says to play A Dorian over an A minor chord:

"Download this one and a half minute mp3 clip of me strumming an A minor chord, and practice playing your G major/A dorian scale positions over it."

^ it says that because A Dorian(A B C D E F# G) has the same notes as the G Major Scale (G A B C D E F#)
but uses them over an Am chord to produce an A minor dorian sound environment.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
the second plays D Dorian over a D minor chord.
http://gosk.com/scales/dorian-scale-for-guitar.php

the first says by starting on different notes eg: 2 (Dorian) it changes the way the note sounds but really the notes are the same.

the second says it will sound D Dorian when played over a D minor chord.
thanks
mike


The important quote on this one is this:

"Playing a D Dorian scale over a C major chord will sound exactly like playing a C major scale (because they are identical). However, playing a D Dorian scale over a D minor chord will sound "Dorian". "

^ Notice here too that D Dorian (D E F G A B C) has the same notes as the C Major scale (C D E F G A B) but played
over a Dm environment, resulting in that Dorian sound again, this time in D Dorian.

:guitar


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:19 pm 
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jeries:


1. third in bass maybe sounds strange but I feel it can be used on certain occasions to spice up the composition

2. circle of fifths? can you talk a bit more about those better ways of learning?


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:17 pm 
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1- yes there are occasions where it sounds good- particularly in moving or chomatic or diatonic basslines or other stuff
but doubling the third or the bass always having the third 90% of the time sounds like crap

2....

Before i talk about my views of them i looked up what people define it as and its use
Wikipedia: In music theory, the circle of fifths (or circle of fourths) shows the relationships among the twelve tones of the chromatic scale, their corresponding key signatures, and the associated major and minor keys. More specifically, it is a geometrical representation of relationships among the 12 pitch classes of the chromatic scale in pitch class space. Musicians and composers use the circle of fifths to understand and describe those relationships. It is intended to be a guide for composition and now it has become essential to writing music due to its design that is very helpful in composing and harmonizing melodies, building chords, and moving to different keys within a composition.

About.com
The Circle of Fifths is a diagram which is an essential tool for musicians. It is named such because it uses a circle to illustrate the relationship of different keys that are a fifth apart.




so basically the circle of fifths is a diagram that shows relationships between keys

first off its useless if you know all the keys by heart

in the context of the circle i think they're useless---
and to understand the relationships theres a much better way

JERIES' FLAW WITH THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS!
it shows you the number but not the notes sharp'd or flat'd at all


(yes the key signature shows it but if people dont learn it right it dont work)

ok this is what i do...

instead of learn the circle of fifths learn the order of sharps and flats

Sharps- FCGDAEB
Flats- BEADGCF
(the order of flats is actually the tuning of a 7 string bass)

the only problem with my way is that you already have to know that C has 0 #/b's F has 1 b and G has 1 #
you have to know this already

but long story short everything the circle does you can do with the order of sharps and flats

the 7th scale degree is always a halfstep to the root

so if were in the key of D... we know that the note before D must be a C# (its not a Db because every letter must get a place in a scale A B C D E F G all needs their name in a scale example- even E###### sharp scale must still have all the letter names just once)

so back to the key of D...
we know if the scale has a C# it must also have the sharps that go before it in the scale
so if the scale has a C# it must automatically have a F#


i just think the circle is useless and there are much better efficent ways of learning the stuff on them...


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:16 pm 
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lol...that`s my way too

I am self thought and I always thought it`s the most efficient way...learn C major...then learn sharps and flats...fuck the positions, they may be great tool for quickly sounding "good" but in the long run you dont need that, you need "open field" and position learning just makes it hard to see it all in one big perspective

the only use of circle of fifths for me is source of inspiration when I need to come up with modulations from one key to the other :mrgreen:


and kudos for so much writing :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Modes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:05 am 
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about the positions- exactly
i think its useless when guitarists see PHRYGIAN on a fretboard diagram and learn the dots on the page without knowing at all what they're doing

of course the major ones in perhaps 2-3 octaves are important

but learning the modes that way is useless


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