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 Post subject: chord oddity
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:00 am 
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how's it goin guys. :P

so here's the deal, i was picking up some some theory lately, picked up this video, Diatonic Harmony and Theory by Doug Doppler, and there's
a section where he goes through two chord forms each of 5 different chord types.

he's giving two forms: one for the root being on the low E, and one for the root being on A.
now my problem is the minor 7 chord

Root on low E:
Image


Root on A:
Image

(it says 6th string root and 5th string root for the E and A respectively, in case its too blurred to see.)

i used the note C, 8th fret E and 3rd fret A for the below;

i tried the chord form at both Cs, but somehow i felt they sounded different,
although this didn't happen with minor and major forms.
so i started to look into the individual notes...

they are C,G,A#,D#.A# and C for the first form, and C,G,A#,D# and G

(actually while typing this figured it out, so, yeah)

shouldn't they be the same?
well i was under the impression that the same chord played with somewhere else would
have the same order and number of each note,just one less for the A string in this case.
well,it turns out, it isn't the case. now i know why they are called chord voicings,
because they have different voices :roll: :lol:

well that's it for my semi-question...


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:50 am 
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well- when i went from piano to guitar the same thing confused me on piano to play a chord you hit 3 notes, and when u do the same chord on guitar you are strumming 6!

a better word for CHORD us TRIAD- and thats pretty much just the word for 3 notes
to get a typical MAJOR chord take the first note 3rd note and 5th note in a key...but i digress

the reason i think he does the m7 chord on both strings because its easier to go from lets say Gmi7 to Cmi7 by switching the forms from E from to A form. so i see why he does it- they're the same chord- but different voicings-

one may give a better sound for what you're doing or be easier to get to...

and theres some rules when u get into theory about what sounds good with voicings- and every lead singer i've had says "WELL I DONT CARE WHAT THEORY SAYS IF IT SOUNDS GOOD IT SOUNDS GOOD" the rules of theory have undergone a 1000 years of hey this typically sounds good and this typically sounds bad...

an example of theory stuff that would apply to this is that its very bad to double the 3rd of a chord- and as you see on the guitar most chords and open chords only have 1 example of the third...(ex E major- 022100 EBE(G#)BE)

and to mention the E form m7 chord you speak of- ive NEVER actually seen it that way

You are better off just getting the pinky or 4th finger off the 2nd string... and just leaving it barred- you get the same chord doing this-in 8th position it would be {8-10-8-8-8-8) its the same chord- open it would be 020000- Em7 is typically refered to as the easiest chord....

good job with the theory keep it up- i see you have some work to do- (you refered to the C m7 chord as having a D#- this tells me to perhaps focus on some scale stuff first then jump back into the chords)
i'd also suggest going to books than videos for theory- and stuff away from the guitar- you're better off with a simple theory book than a guitar book that has some theory stuff in it)
and feel free to PM me anytime for random questions

j


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:00 pm 
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Another thing about voicings-
pretty much if you're playing the 3 notes in any positions or any voicing- or even any 3 random notes its a chord...

you could play a Emi chord by playing the low E open and 2nd and 3rd strings both at the 24th fret- its still an E G and B- may sound awful but its still that chord...

you could also put the guitar in drop D and play 000232- and its still a D major chord- (DADADF#)- and remember my thing about only one third in a chord its there too!

guitars a cool thing you could get all sorts of voicings and sounds you cant naturally do on a piano or something-

when you get into lots of theory theres weird things too like NON CHORD TONES- and those are notes that may appear in a chord but we considar them not in the chord- for example if a part has a moving line- and one of the notes in a moving line doesnt work with what we are calling that chord- we call it a none chord tone so it fits with our theory.

its kinda hard to explain the voicing thing- but as long as those 3 notes are there-its a chord...
you could play 15 different notes at the same time and if you add them up together only 3-4 different notes are there its the same chord- certain things sound good and certain things done- and even people with no musical exp can pickup things like that easily- what sounds good what sounds bad

a last example is sometimes you see a open C chord in a chord chart like this {X30210} and sometimes you see it like this {030210} or maybe like this {330210} they're all the same C E and G- just different note in the bottom. without hearing any of those chords right now i can tell the one with the X sounds the best in most cases- because the lowest note is the ROOT and thats ususally best.


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:12 am
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Location: Zagreb, Croatia
just get some good theory book (I can`t recommend one as I learned from loads of sources and my main book of references are in Croatian...all I remember that Guthrie Govan fast the first guy to every clarify CADEG system for good to me in his books)

AND LEARN LITTLE BLACK DOTS!
tabs are for pussies and lazy asses...once you know every tone on the guitar cold and how chords are build you will see how easier it gets

also try getting some crapy synth if you don`t own anything like that...it helps a big deal with theory work and later with composition


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:58 pm 
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Breeder wrote:
tabs are for pussies and lazy asses...


amen!


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:00 am 
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Jeries wrote:
Another thing about voicings-
pretty much if you're playing the 3 notes in any positions or any voicing- or even any 3 random notes its a chord...

you could play a Emi chord by playing the low E open and 2nd and 3rd strings both at the 24th fret- its still an E G and B- may sound awful but its still that chord...

you could also put the guitar in drop D and play 000232- and its still a D major chord- (DADADF#)- and remember my thing about only one third in a chord its there too!

guitars a cool thing you could get all sorts of voicings and sounds you cant naturally do on a piano or something-

when you get into lots of theory theres weird things too like NON CHORD TONES- and those are notes that may appear in a chord but we considar them not in the chord- for example if a part has a moving line- and one of the notes in a moving line doesnt work with what we are calling that chord- we call it a none chord tone so it fits with our theory.

its kinda hard to explain the voicing thing- but as long as those 3 notes are there-its a chord...
you could play 15 different notes at the same time and if you add them up together only 3-4 different notes are there its the same chord- certain things sound good and certain things done- and even people with no musical exp can pickup things like that easily- what sounds good what sounds bad

a last example is sometimes you see a open C chord in a chord chart like this {X30210} and sometimes you see it like this {030210} or maybe like this {330210} they're all the same C E and G- just different note in the bottom. without hearing any of those chords right now i can tell the one with the X sounds the best in most cases- because the lowest note is the ROOT and thats ususally best.



thanks alot jeries!

what do you mean by D# and having to work on calling it that?

im guessing it should be called Eb instead? yeah i gotta work on that too...



Breeder wrote:

AND LEARN LITTLE BLACK DOTS! tabs are for pussies and lazy asses...



:cry:

-SkiZ- wrote:

amen!


:cry: :cry: :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:47 am 
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ok...theres a lot more too it- but i'll do my best for you to reconize it later.
chords don't come from nowhere- and chords don't come from just being fun/easy/sounding good
they came from SCALES!
the most common scale is the MAJOR scale- its comprised of organizing tones- built in whole steps and half steps.

a major scale would be WWHWWWH
All whole steps except between 3-4 and 7-8
the 1st and 8th note are the same

ALWAYS so a major scale- or any most scale has 7 DIFFERENT notes,( a PENTAtonic scale has 5 notes)

this is a big fact most people miss-- we in the US (ex- in france and germany they use do re me- instead of a b c in music) we in the US, give our names based on the letters A B C D E F G.

NOW.... in every major scale each of those letters MUST be used somehow.
So if i'm playing lets say a D major chord...
a MAJOR chord is made from the 1 3 and 5th note of a major scale

starting from D and going to D making whole steps and halfsteps in the order WWHWWWH and using every letter name we get D E F# G A B C# D
so a d major chord is D F# and A
hmm to go back to your chards lets see d- (xx0232) lets see what notes those make out XXDADF#

so because in a major scale every note needs a name i would not call the note Gb. because G already has a place in the scale.

i tend to see people mix and match #'s and b's in scales and chords- its a no no
even the C# scale has every note having a name C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C# - and were always told that E# and B# dont exit- but in this context its correct- and when you get into theory a lot it makes sense and its easy to use.

like the super cool Vai FTLOG second chord- Emi9 no7 is E B F# G B E- you wouldnt call it Gb and G- that doesnt work

and certain keys are SHARP keys and some are FLAT keys- so like a Bb major scale would not be- Bb C D D# F G A Bb

not to overwhelm you- there are rules that help with this- like there is an order of sharps and flats (# FCGDAEB and b's BEADGCF) the way to use that would be hmm lets see D MAJOR! if between the 7-8 notes it has to be a halfstep and every note gets its own name... then we automatically know the 7th note is C and must be Sharp...and becase of FCGDAEB- if there is a C sharp in a key there is automatically whatever is behind it- so there must be a C# and an F#.

ok i think thats everything.


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:28 pm 
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in short...when building a scale you always have to have 7 different notes unless it is mathematically impossible (like some 8 or more note scales used in flamenco, gypsy, macedonian music etc...

c d e f g a h (in continental europe we say H and B means Hb)

...and you just add # or b to names


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Location: usa
Am7 barre chord

-5---------- A (Root)
-5---------- E (fifth) *
-5---------- C (m3rd)
-5---------- G (m7th)
-7---------- E (fifth)
-5---------- A (Root)

The one shown in your post just uses the pinky on the 2nd string(the B string) to play the m7th * instead of the 5th * on that string like so:

-5---------- A (Root)
-8---------- G (m7th) *
-5---------- C (m3rd)
-5---------- G (m7th)
-7---------- E (fifth)
-5---------- A (Root)


Just move the shapes up to C if you want Cm7

Cm7 should have the notes C,Eb,G,Bb in it.

~

By the way you've got your Root on low E and Root on A pics crossed. :lol:

:guitar :headbang


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 Post subject: Re: chord oddity
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:49 pm 
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Location: Santiago, Chile
If it helps this webpage has a lot of information about theory explained in a simple way and helpme a LOT to get started on the guitar, so it may be useful

http://www.zentao.com/guitar/guitar-lessons.html

http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/


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