dominant pentatonics to imply modes

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euterpe
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dominant pentatonics to imply modes

#1 Post by euterpe » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:32 am

I am a student of dave martone, if you dont know him or his playing you should check it out at davemartone.com.

we've been working with dominant pentatonics

2 notes per string + five different box shapes etc...

A7
----------------------3-7-3-----------------------
------------------5-7-------7-5-------------------
--------------4-6---------------6-4---------------
----------4-5-----------------------5-4-----------
------4-7-------------------------------7-4-------
--3-7---------------------------------------7-3---

its a cool thing to note that the root isnt in the scale itself which is quite convenient when soloing.

anyways the idea is that you can use this shape to imply other modes
so if we were in C#min (dorian minor) we could use an F#dominant pentatonic to imply dorian.

now i understand why this works in this situation but i want to learn how to relate this shape and other pentatonics (not plain major or minor) into modes like lydian and then even further into the harmonic/melodic minor scales with other pentatonics

my real question is does anyone have a formula or reasoning to figure out what 5 notes work best in each modal situation
cause right now ive taken a list of all the ionian derived modes and ive made a list of every possible combination of 5 note scales that stay diatonic but starting on each modal key

i guess a second question would be what kinds of different pentatonics do any of you use

(please no basic major/minor pentatonics! thats all good for me...and i hope most people reading this or i wont be getting much help)

Stephen Brown
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Re: dominant pentatonics to imply modes

#2 Post by Stephen Brown » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:42 am

What 5 best notes out of each mode is/are best?

I would gravitate towards the implied overall sound of the mode. To have pre 5 note scales/systems towards each mode spelt out in seems to take away the essence of mode colour? Wouldn't D.M say about the mode scale degrees & targeting these differences?

Pentatonics.
Using the notes of the pentatonic can you not build scale degrees off of them? Modes inside the pentatonics. I have book that show you these examples.

Other approaches. Didn't Paul Gilbert show in a DVD the ways of using the pentatonic scale with all scale degrees in use. Can't think of the name of the dvd at the mo, sorry. Itense Rock II maybe. Hockey shirt.

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Re: dominant pentatonics to imply modes

#3 Post by cosmic ape » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:18 am

why don't you just write down that exact same lick and change every fourth degree for a #4? Then, you'd get an A7#11 arpeggio... If you don't want it to be dominant, then change the b7 for a major 7th...


edit: it would sound too much like E major that way, you'd have to tweak it a lil' bit...

euterpe
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Re: dominant pentatonics to imply modes

#4 Post by euterpe » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:43 pm

Other approaches. Didn't Paul Gilbert show in a DVD the ways of using the pentatonic scale with all scale degrees in use. Can't think of the name of the dvd at the mo, sorry. Itense Rock II maybe. Hockey shirt.
im pretty sure that you're talking about guitars from mars, he goes through each possible note you could use over minor pentatonic shape. great stuff but not really what im looking for.

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Re: dominant pentatonics to imply modes

#5 Post by burnt out » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:31 pm

euterpe wrote:I am a student of dave martone, if you dont know him or his playing you should check it out at davemartone.com.

we've been working with dominant pentatonics

2 notes per string + five different box shapes etc...

A7
----------------------3-7-3-----------------------
------------------5-7-------7-5-------------------
--------------4-6---------------6-4---------------
----------4-5-----------------------5-4-----------
------4-7-------------------------------7-4-------
--3-7---------------------------------------7-3---

its a cool thing to note that the root isnt in the scale itself which is quite convenient when soloing.
If you are playing that over A7 then what notes of A Mixolydian(A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G) or A7 is it giving you?

G(the b7),B(the 9th),C# (the 3rd),E(the 5th),F#(the 13th)


So sticking with all of the same notes let's analayze it to G Lydian (G,A,B,C#,D,E,F#)

G,B,C#,E,F#................................................................^ root,3rd,#11th,13th,7th .....G(root),B(3rd),C#(#11th),E(13th),F#(7th)

So that could work fine.
But if you don't want the G root note in there then you could just try a regular F# minor pentatonic instead.(Giving you the 7th,9th,3rd,#11th,13th tones of G Lydian).

my real question is does anyone have a formula or reasoning to figure out what 5 notes work best in each modal situation
Arrange the mode in thirds: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 -etc. you've got tension and release notes so use them that way...modally the tension notes are color tones to convey that mode's mood and color, or bad mood/tension.Depending on the mode.
i guess a second question would be what kinds of different pentatonics do any of you use
There are all sorts of 5 note scales out there to try. Try searching the internet for 5 note scales.
(please no basic major/minor pentatonics! thats all good for me...and i hope most people reading this or i wont be getting much help)
Again hit the internet and look for 5 note scales. There's a ton of them. You just have to analyze them to the context you want. See what notes and intervals they give you from your root note and what it means in whatever mode you're in, or whatever the chord or context is.

As far as what notes are the most important notes for each mode lookup Modes 101 on the internet and it should take you to a lesson by that name on cyberfret.com...or just go to cyberfret and look up that lesson, but I always find it easier to find via a google search.

Another site is riddleworks.com and it has some decent modes lessons too.

Also look for posts on "structures" and "upper structure triads" or "upper and lower structure triads" on this forum by SMJ.

Most of all just play whatever you think sounds cool.

:guitar yup

[ Edit: I found one of smj's threads on upper structure triads, he did a follow up post to it but I can't for the life of me find it right now.
Here is the link to the first one though: http://www.vai.com/messageboard/viewtop ... =22&t=3484" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it's very helpful info, check it out]

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Re: dominant pentatonics to imply modes

#6 Post by smj » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:55 pm

Euterpe,

Personally, rather than viewing each 5 note grouping as a scale... I find it much easier to view it as a chord. In your example... you outlined a 5 note grouping to be played over A7. What you're really doing is outlining a GMaj7(#11,13) chord.

G B C# E F#= GMaj7(#11,13)

Some other interpretations of that grouping could be (if you inverted it)

C# E F# G B = C#-7(b5)(11)
E F# G B C# = Emin6(9)
F# G B C# E = F#7sus4(b9)

All of these chords will give you the mixolydian sound. To get the other groupings... you need to find the other scales that yield a Dom7 chord.

Harmonic minor has one on the 5th degree... Mixo(b9b13)
Melodic minor has 3... on the 4th (lydian b7), 5th (mixob13), and 7th (altered) degrees.

Go through each chord scale. Write out all the chords found in each scale. Then write out those same chords with added tensions to form a 5 note grouping... and you'll have all the pentatonic scales to play over a Dominant 7 chord you can handle.

Also, once you do that... you'll have already generated all the other substitute chords for every other chord.... just a matter of perspective.

Hope this is helpful.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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