Score readers/dodecaphony

Discuss playing styles and techniques, or share your own here.
guitarmanK1982
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How many players here can read notated music?

Someone commented in another thread that I never create my own threads, so here's one here.


If anyone is interested in learning how to write atonal music - specifically, how to write dodecaphonic music, then let me know, and i'll post some outline ideas regarding this, and help people work through it.

But you will need to be able to read music - not complex; a basic knowledge of rhythm and pitch will do.

PS don't worry about how it sounds - at this stage, it's about learning the rules, and why certain rules exist.

Knowing how to do this will actually open doors for applying something quite new to your playing/composing. Even if you choose to never use it, it is nice to understand something such as this. The more is understood, the broader one can be in their musical expression.

PPS it can become pretty complex, so this thread will probably last a long time. Don't try to learn it if you only have a spare week or so.

Has anyone here studied counterpoint, or any form of classical harmony? If so, let me know.

If anyone is interested, could they please state what level their theoretical knowledge is at. I'll post the info in order that it can be understood by those of the lowest theoretical level, therefore making it accessible for all those who are interested in learning.

PPPS i'll post on this when I can - things are busy for the next little while.
wasoota
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I always considered dodecaphonal music to be more of an intellectual statement than an artistic one. A necessary step at a certain point in history to free music from pre-existing notions, but somewhat obsolete in today's "yeah, whatever" age? E.g. I'd wager nobody would consider writing poetry where you mustn't re-use a letter until all the other 25 have been used anything more than a mildly amusing experiment that says more through the effort itself than the actual result (I know it's more subtle than that).

Because of my obvious prejudice I can only say I'd be mildly interested to follow such a discussion but I'm afraid I'd be promising a little much if I said I'd actually contribute. - I might, but I'm probably just as likely to walk away shaking my head in disgust. I don't know yet. :)

FWIW, I studied classical harmony up to what I'd consider a moderate level, but that was fifteen years ago.

Don't get me wrong: I am intrigued. Please go on. :)
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Enma-Darei
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I've been wondering a lot about atonal stuff, so I would really like you to post info.

I've been studying classical harmony for, like, a year and this year I started counterpoint, pretty basic stuff, since i Just started. And, of course, I can read music.

I'd like to learn about atonal, because I like to learn new things, is always good: you can think you wont use it, but you never know, you can actually like it and find new ways to use it :P .
Desert_Runner
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I can read music at a pretty basic level. I keep meaning to get really good at it, and I don't really have any excuses for that.

Most of the stuff in your first post went way over my head, but I still think it would be useful to learn what you're talking about.

I'm assuming that dodecaphonic means pretty much the same as atonal, in which the "dodeca" prefix refers to the 12 notes in the chromatic scale.

I don't know what counterpoint is, but the term seems vaguely familiar.

I'm interested, but I don't expect to understand most of this.
guitarmanK1982
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wasoota wrote:I always considered dodecaphonal music to be more of an intellectual statement than an artistic one. A necessary step at a certain point in history to free music from pre-existing notions, but somewhat obsolete in today's "yeah, whatever" age?


It may be intellectual, but the result can be very musical.

By this reasoning, understanding what constitutes a C major chord should be considered an 'intellectual statement' more than a musical one.

Why is understanding chords and scales more artistic than understanding dodecaphony?

Surely anything that has the power to produce a musical result is of relevance, and of artistic merit?

You should listen to Berg's violin concerto - specifically the 3rd movement.



wasoota wrote:E.g. I'd wager nobody would consider writing poetry where you mustn't re-use a letter until all the other 25 have been used anything more than a mildly amusing experiment that says more through the effort itself than the actual result (I know it's more subtle than that).
Perhaps this says more about you than it does about the subject matter ;)

Understanding how to write something such as what I am suggesting can make the understanding of other things easier.


As a musician, you should realise that there isn't anything that should be considered 'irrelevant'.


Everything has a use.


wasoota wrote:Because of my obvious prejudice I can only say I'd be mildly interested to follow such a discussion but I'm afraid I'd be promising a little much if I said I'd actually contribute. - I might, but I'm probably just as likely to walk away shaking my head in disgust. I don't know yet. :)


OK. But you seem biased for the wrong reasons.



I usually form an opinion once I understand something. This is what makes opinion different from bias.

If you wish to be biased, that is fine - most people are.



I assumed Vai fans were open to learning?



I know Vai himself is open to learning all things new.



I'll wait a week or so and find out who wants to learn before starting.
Desert_Runner
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I'm open to learning.
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-SkiZ-
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of course ,me too...however i am practically at kindergarden when it comes to reading music...i've always used my ears and "piano roll"...that's for 7 years or so of selftaughtness...i started taking guitar lessons about 2 months ago and i'm just starting to learn how to read
wasoota
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guitarmanK1982 wrote:
wasoota wrote:E.g. I'd wager nobody would consider writing poetry where you mustn't re-use a letter until all the other 25 have been used anything more than a mildly amusing experiment that says more through the effort itself than the actual result (I know it's more subtle than that).
Perhaps this says more about you than it does about the subject matter ;)

Understanding how to write something such as what I am suggesting can make the understanding of other things easier.


As a musician, you should realise that there isn't anything that should be considered 'irrelevant'.


Everything has a use.
I know, that's why I said later:
wasoota wrote:Because of my obvious prejudice...



I think you're misinterpreting my post. The gist of it was, I'd be interested to hear more, but don't base it on me alone because I personally may not be *that* fascinated for a year long discussion of it.
I have some prejudice which I pointed out myself. Is prejudice of which you are conscious still prejudice? It was tongue in cheek in a sense, but also to tell you where I was coming from. I wouldn't answer a roll call like that with "this sucks", I'd just not reply. But despite my interest, I won't hide from you that I have questioned dodecaphony's actual artistic value.


p.s. Vai, as has been stated here recently again, "hates Jazz". Go figure.
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Breeder
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Reading music?
Well, I suck at sight-reading on guitar, on piano I can do a little better...
...but I know my little black dots enough to understand most of things
(Gardner Read thank you :mrgreen:)

When it comes to rules...I have no idea about them(ok, I did read books, I know the basics but I usually forget about it if I don't use it too much)

I use my ears and listening experience.
For example, when I am composing I will sometimes slow it all down(thank you god for computers :mrgreen:) and then listen...and have a little monologue in my head like "...aha...this should be higher...no not enough light here,hm...too fast, needs surprise..."

I know my way is very slow way and I am eager to learn all I can...so bring it on...
guitarmanK1982
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wasoota wrote: p.s. Vai, as has been stated here recently again, "hates Jazz". Go figure.

It doesn't mean he doesn't understand it.

What do you think he studied at Berklee?

Go figure.
wasoota
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guitarmanK1982 wrote:
wasoota wrote: p.s. Vai, as has been stated here recently again, "hates Jazz". Go figure.

It doesn't mean he doesn't understand it.

What do you think he studied at Berklee?

Go figure.
I don't know. 12-tone music? :lol: j/k
MatJB
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I'm very interested. I tried (very) briefly some 12-tone stuff, but was lazy and didn't put in the time.


some dissonant 12 tone jazz stuff, this kind of sound interests me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBuK-MUOLI0
LoveBlood
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I'm very much interested in learning anything which expands my understanding, please don't be discouraged.
guitarmanK1982
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OK give me a week or two

i'm busy just now, but will post some stuff soon

thanks
budt
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Count me in, as well.
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