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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:09 pm 
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danielarlington wrote:
Shawn Lane doesnt not PICK 19nps..

You are indeed correct. Great usage of double negative.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:14 pm 
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Yngtchie Blacksteen wrote:
danielarlington wrote:
Shawn Lane doesnt not PICK 19nps..

You are indeed correct. Great usage of double negative.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: Hehe, yeah, i didn`t realise he was secretly agreeing with me all along! :lol:

:headbang


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 Post subject: Paco de Lucia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:59 pm 
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Paco De Lucia plays 23 nps using his fingers; which, is very much harder then using a simple pick. On top of that, he plays it on a Flamenco Style Guitar that is a lot harder to play then an Electric, and the strings are farther apart as well!

I have to say that Paco is the fastest. Even better, Paco has put out more albums and has done more for his own genre then any other artist in the world except for maybe John Coltrane.

Talk about an underated guitarist!

I mean the man does not use electronics that make it easier to cover up sloppyness like mega distortion, super compression, and such things where you just touch your fretboard and the notes ring out.

I don't think any of us could even come close to what Paco does with his shredding. Sorry but the facts are hard and cold.


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 Post subject: Re: Paco de Lucia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:48 am 
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spanishphrygian wrote:
Paco De Lucia plays 23 nps using his fingers; which, is very much harder then using a simple pick. On top of that, he plays it on a Flamenco Style Guitar that is a lot harder to play then an Electric, and the strings are farther apart as well!

I have to say that Paco is the fastest.

I don't think any of us could even come close to what Paco does with his shredding. Sorry but the facts are hard and cold.


I'm sorry but they aren't "FACTS hard and cold", that's only your opinion. Obviously you're a big fan of his, as i am.... but you can't let your love for a guitarist re-write facts, you can't just say a guitarist can play "23 nps" without any evidence.

I've been clocking guitarists speed for years now, of course guitarists speed has nothing to do with musicality, but i do it out of curiosity.

The fastest i've been able to clock Paco picking so far, out of all the clips of him i've clocked, is 14 nps.... which is nowhere near 23 nps.

I've noticed a few so called "fastest picking" lists emerge on the internet in the last year or so, and they are normally laughable for how ridicluous and un-scientific they are. The big difference between any other "speed list" i've seen, and my list of fastest picking speeds i've clocked, is that i can back up EVERY single speed i've clocked with evidence, in the form of clips that i've cut down to exactly 1 second, and created a slowed down version for each clip, then post them online, where ANYONE can check them by counting the notes in that slowed down 1 second clip, and not just rely on my word.


Here are a few of the fastest finger picking clips i could find of Paco that i've clocked :


Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 1 (14 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/555434963.html

Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 1 (slow) (14 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/167183857.html



Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 2 (14 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/856901311.html

Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 2 (slow) (14 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/534563975.html



Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 3 (14 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/469936432.html

Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 3 (slow) (14 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/504285911.html



Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 4 (13 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/483153696.html

Paco DeLucia - 1 second of fast finger picking - clip 4 (slow) (13 nps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/240820414.html



3 of those fast finger picking clips of Paco Live in concert were 14 nps, and the other one was 13 nps.
If you think you know of any perticular clips of Paco that are faster than those, then if you let me know or post any clips and i'll clock them scientifically. :)

Cheers.

WJ.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:41 am 
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Hi willjay. Of course you are right about Paco. Strange how fast and sharp and clear Paco can articulate each note at those speeds. His nephew is a notch faster than him, as can be seen on the DVD "FRANCISCO SANCHEZ". The tune Caña de Azucar, it is around 117bpm, Paco sticks to 6's (sextuplet 24th notes, 11.7 nps), but his nephew banderas launches into a decending run of 8's (32 notes). It is all about rhythmic control with those guys, not cramming notes into a beat persay.

But the fastest I have heard Paco litterally doing a long alternate finger picked run on record, is a tune called "Chanela". Which is about that same speed, 8's at 116 or so. Under 16nps obviously, but so controlled and sweet and clear. It is a problem because just because you don't hear them do it in song doesn't not mean they can't. They are controlling the rhythm, so to push faster is "wrong". They keep in the limits that the song allows for. Little speed bursts here and there should not count.

I guess McLaughlin and others can go faster with alternate picking. But there are other techniques in flamenco, which might have given that idea of 23 nps. For example, there are rasgueados that may use 3 fingers to attack, flicking the wrist. Those can produce speeds close to 20 nps, yet those rhythms must again come out clear and clean. Of course that is not the point of the speed picking contest going on here, but that is real control.
Check it out between 4:25-4:27. I think it is around 180-190 bpm, 6's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9vNSA0WNlw


Anyway, I check out your vids of Shawn Lane on youtube. Never heard him much before. Very melodic and sensitive player. I love it. But the super speed in spots is really out of left field for me, doesn't fit the tune. but his normal soloing is so nice. I missed the speed you clocked for him alternate picking at 18 nps. could you post again please? Looks like the super speed stuff is economy picking but man it sounds weird it is so fast.

Ricardo
PS, I think that Paco is not under rated. He gets the highest accolades in the flamenco world. And yeah, perhaps the overall best guitarist of all time. But not necessarily the "fastest".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:45 am 
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Ricardo wrote:
Hi willjay. Of course you are right about Paco. Strange how fast and sharp and clear Paco can articulate each note at those speeds. His nephew is a notch faster than him, as can be seen on the DVD "FRANCISCO SANCHEZ". The tune Caña de Azucar, it is around 117bpm, Paco sticks to 6's (sextuplet 24th notes, 11.7 nps), but his nephew banderas launches into a decending run of 8's (32 notes). It is all about rhythmic control with those guys, not cramming notes into a beat persay.

But the fastest I have heard Paco litterally doing a long alternate finger picked run on record, is a tune called "Chanela". Which is about that same speed, 8's at 116 or so. Under 16nps obviously, but so controlled and sweet and clear. It is a problem because just because you don't hear them do it in song doesn't not mean they can't. They are controlling the rhythm, so to push faster is "wrong". They keep in the limits that the song allows for. Little speed bursts here and there should not count.

I guess McLaughlin and others can go faster with alternate picking. But there are other techniques in flamenco, which might have given that idea of 23 nps. For example, there are rasgueados that may use 3 fingers to attack, flicking the wrist. Those can produce speeds close to 20 nps, yet those rhythms must again come out clear and clean. Of course that is not the point of the speed picking contest going on here, but that is real control.
Check it out between 4:25-4:27. I think it is around 180-190 bpm, 6's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9vNSA0WNlw


Anyway, I check out your vids of Shawn Lane on youtube. Never heard him much before. Very melodic and sensitive player. I love it. But the super speed in spots is really out of left field for me, doesn't fit the tune. but his normal soloing is so nice. I missed the speed you clocked for him alternate picking at 18 nps. could you post again please? Looks like the super speed stuff is economy picking but man it sounds weird it is so fast.

Ricardo
PS, I think that Paco is not under rated. He gets the highest accolades in the flamenco world. And yeah, perhaps the overall best guitarist of all time. But not necessarily the "fastest".


Hey there! :)


You're right, i can only really say how fast a certain clip is, though if it gets to the point where i've clocked 20 or so of the fastest clips i can find from one person, i think it's fair to say that would be around their fastest speed.

I personally think Paco could finger pick a little bit faster than the speeds i've managed to clock (mainly because in one clip i clocked of him, which came out at 14 nps, within that 1 second he actually started to speed up a bit in the last few notes in that second.... if only he had kept that speed up long enough to clock a full second of that speed????).



I just clocked Paco's strumming speed in that part of the video you posted a link for.


Here is a short audio clip of that strumming lick from the video :
http://www.speedyshare.com/789744610.html


Here is exactly 1 second of that (15 sps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/566373951.html


Here is that 1 second clip slowed down (version 1) (15 sps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/751262984.html


Here is that 1 second clip slowed down (version 2) (15 sps) :
http://www.speedyshare.com/853179698.html


So that Paco strumming clip clocked in at 15 "strums" per second (sps). :)

I personally don't think Paco is underrated, at least not if you think about what "underrated" actually means...... I'm yet to come across one person who doesn't think Paco is amazing at what he does, and have the most respect for him.





The Shawn Lane picking clip i clocked at 18 nps was this one, from his solo in "Get You Back" (from MIT - 5th Feb 1993), the run he picks at 12 seconds into the clip :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lUPzGuyFN4


I know Shawn does use little bits of economy picking on certain licks/shapes he plays, but i haven't clocked any of his economy picked licks.


Willie.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:30 pm 
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Thanks willy! But you know your counting is off. In the slow clip, version 1, if that is the true full "second", you hear the claps marking beats. The strumming is clearly 3 hits per clap (well to me since I know the technique his doing there, I guess it is noisy), and there are 6 claps in your clip. That is 18 notes. And there is a lead in which is fuzzy but sounds like 1 or 2 notes. Since there is time for a pick-up clap, I feel that it is two sounds there, could be if we had another beat to go on, so literally the speed of the strumming is 20 nps. The really amazing thing is the off beat clapper is swinging hard right with the triplets!

Can you do a slow version of the Lane picking? It is really insane! Tempo is around 130 I guess and he is playing 32nd notes? Is that close?

Ricardo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:20 pm 
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Yeah I am a huge fan of Paco de Lucia. I have almost all of his albums as well even the ones with Camaron de la Isla. I suppose I should go through all of my cd's and find a track that seems to be the fastest.

I remember reading a book about Paco de Lucia by Paco Sevilla and the author said that Paco was actually faster then both John Mclaughlin and Al di Meola.

Even being a few notes slower don't mean much if you are using picado on a flamenco guitar. I mean lets face it, if Paco can play fast the traditional way then using a whimpy pick is going to be so much easier.

I know that Flamenco is not about speed though, so I agree with Ricardo and you about that. Flamenco is about real expresion and feeling with Duende.

I am glad that other people have a lot of respect for him and admire him as well. I am glad that people love guitar.

Sadly, I am afriad that non-guitarists and people outside of Hispanic culture may be missing out on how great flamenco is.

I still don't think that you have Paco's fastest clips though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:42 pm 
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Ricardo wrote:
Thanks willy! But you know your counting is off. In the slow clip, version 1, if that is the true full "second", you hear the claps marking beats. The strumming is clearly 3 hits per clap (well to me since I know the technique his doing there, I guess it is noisy), and there are 6 claps in your clip. That is 18 notes. And there is a lead in which is fuzzy but sounds like 1 or 2 notes. Since there is time for a pick-up clap, I feel that it is two sounds there, could be if we had another beat to go on, so literally the speed of the strumming is 20 nps. The really amazing thing is the off beat clapper is swinging hard right with the triplets!

Can you do a slow version of the Lane picking? It is really insane! Tempo is around 130 I guess and he is playing 32nd notes? Is that close?

Ricardo


Trust me, my counting is not off.... i've listened to that clip at least 50 times now, and i still hear 15 "strums" of the guitar, and trust me, i'm not counting the "claps".
As crazy as this sounds, i've litterally probably slowed down, studied, and clocked more guitar clips than any human being ever has (yes, i'm that sad :) ). I've actually slowed down and studied litterally thousands of fast guitar clips.
One of the things i've learned to do after years of listening to slowed down guitar clips, studying every little sound, is to actually seperate the sounds i hear, and only count the type of sound i want to count.




Anyway, here is one second of that Lane 18 nps lick :
http://www.speedyshare.com/422802821.html

Here it is slowed down :
http://www.speedyshare.com/361328634.html




Here is an unbelievable Live guitar solo by Shawn, probably the single scariest display of guitar technique i've ever heard :shock: :shock: :
http://www.speedyshare.com/616855680.html


Here is another really cool recording of Shawn playing "Not Again" live in 1992, but then when the song finishes he plays another inhuman guitar solo :shock: :shock:
http://www.speedyshare.com/774726797.html


Here's one of my favourite recordings of Shawn, of him playing one of my fave tunes, "Get You Back", Live at Rockefellers in Houston, 1993...... but the picked run Shawn plays at the end of this version is my all time favourite picked run!! :shock: :shock: :
http://www.speedyshare.com/559113727.html



Anyway, those are a few cool rare recordings of Shawn that i like. :)

WJ.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:42 pm 
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Quote:
actually seperate the sounds i hear, and only count the type of sound i want to count.



Hmm, that is a mistake IMO. You need to count the attacks. I dont' think rasgueado is a fair thing to test because as a finger strikes the string it brushes across several strings. Not the same as individual notes. But in any case you are mistaken still about the 15. You are not counting claps, but you do understand that there are corresponding stroks on the claps yes? Well I know quite well the technique he is using is thumb up, ring finger down, index down. The ring down is the weekest stroke, but it is there believe me. It is a triplet feeling. Perhaps you are counting only two notes of the triplet and that is how you reach 15??? da daDA daDA daDA daDA daDA daDA da=14. With a swing feel. That is my guess. But to me it is crytal clear; da daDAdidaDAdidaDAdidaDAdidaDAdidaDAdida=20. The rhythm of it jumps out to me. It is 6's at normal tempo, slowed down it is triplets and they are lining up right on the beats, which are marked by the claps. And there are 6 "beats" in your clip, not including the pick up and tail. I will try to find an example of an equally fast rasgueado that has a more separated stroke sound if you don' believe me. There are different ways of doing that technique.

The slowest version sounds like mud to me. And the Shawn lane sounds clearly super fast at normal pitch and temp, but slowed down, it sounds like a wave coming down, I don't hear the same separation. I will keep listening. It is a real problem when the pitch is lower. Can't you slow down and retain pitch some how??

Thanks for all the clips by the way, it is real interesting. I thought the second long solo of Lane was more musical than the one before, but I am not into that atonal sound.

Ricardo


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:45 pm 
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"Speed is a great tool but a terrible master."
Nuff said. :D
Jet


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 2:03 pm 
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VAI IS FASTEST NUFF SAID


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 1:09 am 
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firestone wrote:
VAI IS FASTEST NUFF SAID

:D
I love a good speed debate.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:34 pm 
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I don't care if a guitarist is the fastest player in the world. I care more about tonal qualities, sound, and composition than speed.

Of course, you get a guy like Steve Vai every once in a while who has both.

Stop arguing, all of you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 11:19 pm 
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firestone wrote:
VAI IS FASTEST NUFF SAID
He might be the best player, but he is not the fastest :wink:


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