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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:39 am
by lydian7
smj wrote:It's no secret that all the really great jazz players have deep roots in the blues....and I think a lot of students miss that. A lot of students get hung up on the academics and mechanics of jazz too early on in the game before certain things are in place.

Learn to swing. If you can't swing and sound good on a basic 12 bar blues....I would start there. McLaughlin, Corea...Coltrane...you name it...they've all spent time with the blues and it's deeply rooted in their playing no matter how far out they get.

Sean Meredith-Jones
I'm not really a fan of blues. I think guitarists often rely too much on the old tried and tested minor pentatonic licks too often, to the point where it becomes fatiguing to the ear. Sometimes I wonder if it would be better to teach my students the scales in full, and steer them away from the minor pentatonic boxes so that they can perhaps discover new applications and cover new territory.

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:15 am
by smj
Pentatonic scales are a huge part of Coltrane, Miles, Mcoy Tyner, Kenny Garrett...you name it. The difference is that they use them in very different ways than say someone like SRV....not that any one of them is better than the other...just different.

Transcribe any solo by Mcoy or Kenny....I guarantee, 75% or more of their solo is comprised of pentatonic lines.

I also like them because it's gets the students thinking more about time and phrasing....rather than getting riled up with note choice.

Also, the blues is not just about the notes. It's about the feel, the tone, the space...the energy. It has that cry to it. It goes a lot deeper than just scales.

Sean Meredith-Jones

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:34 pm
by lydian7
smj wrote:Pentatonic scales are a huge part of Coltrane, Miles, Mcoy Tyner, Kenny Garrett...you name it. The difference is that they use them in very different ways than say someone like SRV....not that any one of them is better than the other...just different.

Transcribe any solo by Mcoy or Kenny....I guarantee, 75% or more of their solo is comprised of pentatonic lines.

I also like them because it's gets the students thinking more about time and phrasing....rather than getting riled up with note choice.

Also, the blues is not just about the notes. It's about the feel, the tone, the space...the energy. It has that cry to it. It goes a lot deeper than just scales.

Sean Meredith-Jones
I wouldn't say Miles and Coltrane were exponents of the blues, though arguably Jazz could be thought of as a derivative. Miles Davis was the pioneer of modes in Jazz, and the pre-cursor to Jazz-fusion as we know it today. Miles' greatest achievement, Kind of Blue, was an experimentation to stray away from conventional tonalities and structures by incorporating George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation into his compositions, and it certainly paid off, becoming the most successful jazz album of all time (and arguably the most influencial). If he'd have stuck to the colourless tones of the minor pentatonic scales, then there would have been no Kind of Blue. So in order to progress, I feel artists should be encouraged to break from the conventional and embrace the unnatural.

~Moka

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:13 pm
by Blade Runner
Moderator777 wrote:
Christophar wrote:Jazz is one of the many types of music.
Wow, thanks for clarifying this for people with an IQ below 50. :roll: How about a USEFUL post now?

--------------
Moderator777
www.vai.com
roflmao

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:48 pm
by burnt out
If he'd have stuck to the colourless tones of the minor pentatonic scales, then there would have been no Kind of Blue.
pentatonic scales don't have to be colo(u)rless you know

it's all in how you use them really...

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:15 am
by Deyo
MR4Y wrote:Jazz is probably the most difficult type of music that exists, because they use all the things praticable in theory and playing either. To play jazz you need to lear new techniques like "approaching notes", "outside notes", etc... Learning to play jazz is like learning from the very beginning how to play the guitar. But, if you play jazz, you'll be able to play all the styles fo music.

hm...try to master flamenco guitar sound and techniques..jazz is way easier

:wink:

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:11 am
by ernzzz
flamenco is jazz... i tell u, i'm spanish! :D

another thing is that it has a different technique for guitar.. (if its harder or not its subjective..) or a tradition of the usage of some rithm patterns or characteristic sound in it (be chords be scales)... but again all that is comprised in jazz and music theory...

anyway... what is jazz? :P

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:23 am
by ernzzz
hey lydian7, thnx for mentioning the Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation... i just got the book today from the conservatory library.. and seems quite promising!.. i knew the lydian mode was too cool to be secondary heheh :P

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:04 am
by smj
lydian7 wrote:
Kind of Blue, was an experimentation to stray away from conventional tonalities and structures by incorporating George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation into his compositions, and it certainly paid off, becoming the most successful jazz album of all time (and arguably the most influencial). If he'd have stuck to the colourless tones of the minor pentatonic scales, then there would have been no Kind of Blue. So in order to progress, I feel artists should be encouraged to break from the conventional and embrace the unnatural.

~Moka
Are we talking about the same record here? You've listened to it right?You don't think there are minor pentatonic scales on there? It's sort of the entire melody for So What. Two of the songs on there are blues tunes...Freddie and 5 o'clock blues (or whatever it's called). Look at the other titles..."Blue In Green"...listen to that song...or Flamenco Sketches. Sure there are a lot of other things happening there too...but the blues underpinnings are pretty clear. You don't think Miles, Canonball, Coltrane, or Bill Evans used blues/pentatonic licks in their solos on that album? Maybe I'm just tone deaf.

I'm not sure if the average listener going to the record store is buying that album because of Miles' use of the "Lydian Chromatic Method". The songs are great...it's a smooth record. Even the most pedestrian of ears can appreciate it.

Read Miles's biography with Quincy Troupe where he talks about what was going on when he made that record. He talks about when he was a kid, walking along a dark country road with his cousin coming back from church. He very much wanted church/gospel to be a flavor in his own music.

Things started to go out when Miles was working with his later quintet with Wayne Shorter and Herbie. There's a live concert package called "Live at The Plugged Nickel"....the versions of Stella and So What that they do are pretty out there.

Sean Meredith-Jones

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:37 am
by Alex Smith
Listening to Jazz Fusion and then saying "how do I play it?" is a bit like watching a black and white film noir movie and then asking how you make good movies. It's a long, long answer, and kind of a wrongly-directed question; no offence intended. Jazz Fusion is, of course, jazz style with another style added, usually rock, from my experience. You don't learn a style, you learn what you need to play in a style.

Now, do you want to play the kind of melodies, licks, riffs, solos that saxophonists play? Because that requires lots of theory and lots of correct application of it, and then just playing in that style. Or do you want to just play in a Jazz Fusion band? When Courtney Pine (saxophonist) was doing a gig on the TV, the woodwind/brass instruments played the very same jazzy solo style, and it sounded great. The guitar solos just used the blues scale / pentatonic scale, and it sounded alright. However, if you listen to bands like Phish, Trey Anastasio's playing is very much a complicated jazz guitar style, using notes that will fit to make a music and melody-based playing style, not just using notes that are bound to a very simple and confined basic rule, such as your run-of-the-mill major/minor scale playing.

First? That takes work. Learn lots of theory, learn how to apply it onto the fretboard, so that you can play something like that. Second? Just run around your basic scales with a backing band that knows what it's doing.

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:53 am
by smj
Yeah but the difference between someone like SRV and Scofield (or any modern player) is if the chord is Bb7, they're using a Db-7 pentatonic scale...or an Ab-7(b5) penta scale.

The -7 penta scale can be derived from melodic minor and harmonic minor...and can therefore be used to simulate all derivative scales/flavors. Someone like Pat Martino has absolutely no idea what a lydian augmented scale is...but he has unusual pentatonic scale substitutions for any altered chord. I've been to one of his clinics where he discussed that in greater detail. All the modern note choice concepts are applicable. Also, how the lines are shaped has a large part to do with the "moderness" of the sound.

There are also other Pentatonic scales...min6, majb2...whole tone pentatonic...etc. Check out Jerry Bergonzi's "Inside Improvisation" Vol 2 for more complete studies of pentatonic scales in jazz. Just as modern and contemporary as anything else....if that's what you're going for.

Sean Meredith-Jones

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:55 am
by ernzzz
Anastasio's playing is very much a complicated jazz guitar style, using notes that will fit to make a music and melody-based playing style, not just using notes that are bound to a very simple and confined basic rule, such as your run-of-the-mill major/minor scale playing.
i see what u mean.. maybe thats a bit off-topic.. but maybe for Anastasio, his own playin will be "basic rules" and the notes he play may be "simple"... just as for u or me, blues pentatonic solos are basic and simple.. its all about the person who plays and who listens...

yet this isnt teaching us anything heheh :P

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:30 pm
by Christophar
smj wrote:
lydian7 wrote:
Kind of Blue, was an experimentation to stray away from conventional tonalities and structures by incorporating George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation into his compositions, and it certainly paid off, becoming the most successful jazz album of all time (and arguably the most influencial). If he'd have stuck to the colourless tones of the minor pentatonic scales, then there would have been no Kind of Blue. So in order to progress, I feel artists should be encouraged to break from the conventional and embrace the unnatural.

~Moka
Are we talking about the same record here? You've listened to it right?You don't think there are minor pentatonic scales on there? It's sort of the entire melody for So What. Two of the songs on there are blues tunes...Freddie and 5 o'clock blues (or whatever it's called). Look at the other titles..."Blue In Green"...listen to that song...or Flamenco Sketches. Sure there are a lot of other things happening there too...but the blues underpinnings are pretty clear. You don't think Miles, Canonball, Coltrane, or Bill Evans used blues/pentatonic licks in their solos on that album? Maybe I'm just tone deaf.

I'm not sure if the average listener going to the record store is buying that album because of Miles' use of the "Lydian Chromatic Method". The songs are great...it's a smooth record. Even the most pedestrian of ears can appreciate it.

Read Miles's biography with Quincy Troupe where he talks about what was going on when he made that record. He talks about when he was a kid, walking along a dark country road with his cousin coming back from church. He very much wanted church/gospel to be a flavor in his own music.

Things started to go out when Miles was working with his later quintet with Wayne Shorter and Herbie. There's a live concert package called "Live at The Plugged Nickel"....the versions of Stella and So What that they do are pretty out there.

Sean Meredith-Jones
He dose more then "the chromatic meathod" on that alblum if you look into it it gets really technical. Ever herd of alternating triads? its when you play 2 triads then you take the root note of both and find a mode where the first triad is a 4th in the mode and the seconed one is a 5th. Satch has done it too in the past its supposed to make stuff sound really melodic.

Anyways...when it comes to miles davis "bitches brew" is his best alblum (in my opinion).

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:30 pm
by Deyo
ernzzz wrote:flamenco is jazz... i tell u, i'm spanish! :D

another thing is that it has a different technique for guitar.. (if its harder or not its subjective..) or a tradition of the usage of some rithm patterns or characteristic sound in it (be chords be scales)... but again all that is comprised in jazz and music theory...

anyway... what is jazz? :P
i agree that there is a lot of theory involved in flamenco music as in every kind of music, BUT lets be realistic, real old school flamenco has nothing to do with jazz, not old kind of jazz not modern concepts. Although, guys like Tomatito, Vicente Amigo and Jose Antonio Rodriguez, even PDL are lately implementing jazz vibes into traditional flamenco melody but that is something very experimental :wink:
I've been playing and listening flamenco for quite a while and i really do not think that there is a same "goal" or "idea behind it" in flamenco and jazz.

take care, amigo! :D

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:34 pm
by lydian7
smj wrote: Are we talking about the same record here? You've listened to it right?You don't think there are minor pentatonic scales on there? It's sort of the entire melody for So What. Two of the songs on there are blues tunes...Freddie and 5 o'clock blues (or whatever it's called). Look at the other titles..."Blue In Green"...listen to that song...or Flamenco Sketches.
So What is almost entirely a dorian modal study, and the magical atmosphere conjured by Miles' first solo on the piece is obtained by accenting the sharpened 6th in the scale. Sure, the minor pentatonic notes are in there, but they're in a lot of scales. If miles were to play only the five notes from the penta minor (possibly with the 'blue' note added), then I would concure that he was playing within the minor pentatonic, and thus would not be able to obtain the elusive mood of the piece.

Freddie is the weakest song on the album, and yes that is the most traditional 12-bar piece, and as a result the most uninteresting piece on the album according to alot of critics (myself included). ;)

Flemenco Sketches is a study into the Phrygian mode, and again the minor pentatonic notes do exist within the mode, but without the notes added from the Phrygian mode, the whole spanish atmosphere of the piece would never be possible.
ernzz wrote:hey lydian7, thnx for mentioning the Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organisation... i just got the book today from the conservatory library.. and seems quite promising!.. i knew the lydian mode was too cool to be secondary
No problem mate! It's an interesting read, and fascinating to discover the origins of modes in popular music (as opposed to 'classical'). :)