right...i dont care if this sounds dumb.

Discuss playing styles and techniques, or share your own here.
Post Reply
ZERO
Member
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:59 am

right....so modes are scales played from different degrees of a major scale....and if thats the case i dont see how they can all have there own distinct sounds...for instance how is it that the Phrygian is always mentioned when talking about metal and heavyer stuff? surely its only as heavy sounding as all the others...as they are all the same scale just from different degrees? this is pissing me off so much lol
Balex the Shizzle
Member
Member
Posts: 481
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:26 am

i agree sorta, its hard to define

its more that you ahve to concentrate on the main note in the scale, A dorian you must make sure it is flavoured lots with A, G ionian with G, etc, that way you get teh feel of the intervals etc

pedal notes r a bass player playing note are also good
ZERO
Member
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:59 am

i still dont understand why phygian is so asociated with metal tho...coz no matter what notes you emphasise...its still a major scale. surely?
Balex the Shizzle
Member
Member
Posts: 481
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:26 am

yeh, but its only generally associated with metal cos ofthe sound of the intervals harmonising n stuff (im no expert yet tho, please correct me whenever i wrong lol)

it is that the sound of this scale shredded often can have a metal vibe, it is the same notes, but the point is not what wide choice of notes you have, but where you start, if you start on the second interval of the major scale then play all the way up to the second interval in the next octave, it sounds much different to the straight major scale that corresponds

i hope that sorta helped, if not, i hope someone can explain it better lol
FINGERS76
Member
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:53 am

It isn't the scale as much as the chord progression it is played over.

Record yourself playing several chord progressions then play scales over them. You will see the difference in sound.
j3
Member
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:43 am

ZERO wrote:i still dont understand why phygian is so asociated with metal tho...coz no matter what notes you emphasise...its still a major scale. surely?
It's from a major scale, but it's not a major scale.
The relationship of the notes above the root to the root determines the quality of the scale. In order for a scale to be 'major' the third has to be 2 whole-steps up from the root, the fifth should probably be perfect, and the 7th can be major or minor. Phygian's formula is
1, d2, m3, P4, P5, m6, m7 or
1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7.

The other two guys were right. The mode is defined by the key center, which can be defined by drone bass notes or chords. The reason Phyrgian is used so much in metal is the predominance of 2 motives. The first is resolution to the root chord by half step, ie F5 - E5. The second motif is the tritone relationship from the Dominant chord to the bii chord, ie B5 - F5. These relationships can be transposed to other key centers and are not the only progressions in metal.
However, just like there are more progressions in the Beatles catalog than I-IV-V, I-IV-V is nonetheless the default progression for a pop song. Thus the Ionian, Lydian, and Mixolydian are the default modes in pop the same way the phrygian is often associated with metal. Ultimately, if you are playing progressions, you might be better to think of playing in the minor key center rather than modally. If your bass player is just chuggin on an open string, then you probably are playing a mode. The mode is defined, as I said, by the intervals above the root note.
You really don't need to get into this stuff in order to play good, heavy music. Just approach every song as it's own little musical universe. Find out what notes sound stable over the progression, and which notes have tension. Play tastefully and don't use notes you can't hear in your head before you play them. You'll start out sounding bland, because you'll be leaning on what you know, but eventually you'll get more freedom by opening up the sonic possibilities. Metal is not all about knowing a jillion scales and arpeggios, but you can practice scales and arpeggios to give you enough technique to play whats in your mind's ear. Eventually the muscle and aural memory will filter itself into your playing and make you a more versatile musician. Just don't get hung up on the theory stuff.
For a good example of how modes are used in musical context, Steve does some pitch axis stuff in the Riddle, on P&W. In that case it's mostly a variety of modes related to Lydian, but you can see just how characteristic sounds are associated with intervals above a root note.
User avatar
phoenix2874
Member
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:29 pm

" raise your hand and repeat after me: IWILL NOT THINK OF MODES AS BRANCHES OF A MAJOR SCALE. I WILL SEE THEM AS UNIQUE ENTITIES, AND LEARN THEIR CONSTRUCTION AS INDIVIDUAL SCALES. I WILL NOT REVERT BACK TO THE MAJOR SCALE THEY ARE DERIVED FROM WHEN LEARNING THEIR SOUNDS. I WILL UNDERSTAND THAT JUST BECAUSE A MODE HAS MAJOR QUALITIES, IT IS NOT A MAJOR SCALE. I UNDERSTAND THAT G LYDIAN IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SOUND THAN G MAJOR, AND THAT G MAJOR AND C LYDIAN , THOUGH THEY HAVE THE SAME EXACT NOTES, SOUND NOTHING LIKE EACH OTHER. I WILL NOT OVER COMPLICATE THE STUDY OF MODES AND READ TOO MUCH INTO THEM. LASTLY, I WILL USE THE WONDERFUL *SEARCH* FUNCTION ON THIS WEBSITE AND NOT POST A TOPIC FOR THE 4352ND TIME." Sorry guys, not trying to be an ass, but it`s been covered MANYMANYMANYMANY times here, and some very good explanations have been posted. Search is your friend, use it instead of using up bandwidth asking a question that has been answered probably 3 or 4 hundred times since this forum was opened. We are all here to help, just try to help yourselves first.
Knyq
Member
Member
Posts: 273
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:18 pm

*head explodes as a result of another thread about modes*



(no offense intended)
markelia
Member
Member
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:43 pm

to the OP: to keep it short and sweet: yes, modes are built off the notes of a major scale. For instance, built from your G major scale you have:

G Ionian, also called G major (G,A,B,C,D,E,F#)
A Dorian (A,B,C,D,E,F#,G)
B Phrygian (B,C,D,E,F#,G,A)
C Lydian (C,D,E,F#,G,A,B)
D Mixolydian (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C)
E Aeolian, also called E pure minor (E,F#,G,A,B,C,D)
F# Locrian (F#,G,A,B,C,D,E)

These seven modes are all comprised of the notes of the G major scale. However, to really get the modal sound, you should improvise with these notes over one particular chord. For example, record yourself playing a C chord for about a minute. Then play the C Lydian notes listed above. This will let you hear the "Lydian sound"; you may notice the particular tension between F# and G, which is the main characteristic of the lydian sound. Try this exercise with all the modes; for instance, play an Aminor chord for about a minute, and experiment with the A Dorian notes listed above.

In order to really get the hang of this stuff, you might want to take a few lessons, and maybe a book. I'd recommend spending a lot of time playing your pentatonic/blues scales before getting into all this modal stuff, because even after you learn all this crap, blues/pentatonics still sound awfully cool most of the time. 8)
Nick.
Member
Member
Posts: 245
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2003 2:19 am

to understand how modes work best..you need to hear them and get another guitarist with you rather than asking for replies on a forum...that way you can see and hear the diferences between the major scale and the modes. it is possible to explain in words, but its harder.
ZERO
Member
Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:59 am

Thanks for all the help guys.
sorry that i pissed you off.
ill use search in future :oops: :)
User avatar
resha
Member
Member
Posts: 3008
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:09 am

My PERSONAL hint:
analyse this (it helped me a lot in thinking modally when I'm playing...)
take the G MAJOR SCALE and compare it to the G LYDIAN MODE
the first is the normal major scale (which you'll surely know, but...)
G A B C D E F#
the second is D (G is its 4th) MAJOR SCALE played from G to G
D E F# G A B C#
if you think about it as the G MAJOR SCALE you'll have this
G A B C# D E F#
and you'll certainly see that G MAJOR hasn't got a C#!

SO...
I don't know what's the right way of thinking it but...
If you think it as the D MAJOR SCALE you'll have no notes' problems (except remember that you're in G LYDIAN MODE...)
if you think it as a STRANGE G MAJOR SCALE (which actually is not a right definition) you'll have to play the normal G MAJOR SCALE WITH THE 4th# which in modes' theory is the particular note that represent the lydian mode (because in the D MAJOR SCALE you have a C#)...
hope it helps... :P
weapon
Member
Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:50 am

Think INTERVALS. www.ibreathemusic.com
User avatar
phoenix2874
Member
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:29 pm

Zero, I don`t think you so much as pissed anyone off. The topic of modes has been covered SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times on this forum that some people get tired of reading/seeing/answering mode questions. I got my first "insight" into modes via the Cherry Lane scales and Modes book, as cheesy as it sounds. Then I learned how to see the modes as their own entity and it all made perfect sense.
Post Reply