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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:57 pm 
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Dude, what are you basing your assumptions off? And why, for goodness' sake, are you projecting your assumptions as fact onto someone who lives and breathes the industry and is suggesting otherwise?

~A


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:30 pm 
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anuj wrote:
Dude, what are you basing your assumptions off? And why, for goodness' sake, are you projecting your assumptions as fact onto someone who lives and breathes the industry and is suggesting otherwise?

~A



Because industry depends on where you live, and the rules are different at different places. I know you live in California and you probably think that's the only place where 'music business' term makes sense. So if you don't sell anything -- that's no business, right?


There's no authority for me, and you can ban me if you want if you don't like what I say. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:39 pm 
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Kyo, look at it this way:

I'm here creating some viral activity for your album, making a complete idiot out of myself, such a disgusting bastard, a devil in disguise. So that people would take it as I'm completely wrong and you're right, so they simply go and buy your album... just like Mikey did. :lol:


You can use this idea to further promote your music. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:59 pm 
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LOL, your entire existence in this thread is ironic. I think you ought to try and release an album and see what you realize ;)

~A


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:47 am 
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anuj wrote:
LOL, your entire existence in this thread is ironic. I think you ought to try and release an album and see what you realize ;)

~A



Once PayPal is ready to transfer money back to us, we'll be selling tons of albums of local bands and artists on iTunes. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:06 am 
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Mikey wrote:
Matwey wrote:
Kyo wrote:
9. ... quite a few of your online acquaintances don't legally obtain music at all (they might make an exception for their favorite band).



Sorry, can't help myself, but... if you think you're going to be a billionaire after selling one album -- you're mistaken. It's not what it used to be 20-30 years ago.

Your one and only target as a musician should be touring with your music as much as humanly possible. This is the only way to make decent money on music these days.


That said, you should thank those people who spread your music over the Internet, thus working on your popularity for free.


Jeez, don't you love it when someone thinks they're giving you a reality check, when they don't know what they're talking about?

As someone who actually works in the music industry and has an intimate knowledge of how things work when it comes to both recording albums and touring, I can't stress enough how clueless your post is. It's typical of those who who think they know it all, because they read anecdotal evidence on the internet to support their already flawed perspective of the music business.

Kyo didn't say anything about being a billionaire. And if you really did know what you were talking about, you'd also know that even 20-30 years ago it wouldn't make anyone a billionaire either. It never did, and it never will, but that's not what he was hoping for anyway, making your comment pointless.

The fact that you would then tell him to be thankful that people would spread his music for free over the internet without permission is completely insulting.

People who have attitudes like this are part of the gradual decline of artists being able to make any money at all with their art. I can hardly fathom the disrespect you have for struggling artists who are simply trying to get paid for their work - which isn't asking much.

Totally shameful.

Kyo - all the best to you. Don't be discouraged in the face of adversity. Keep at it, and don't compromise.

You should post a link to where people can buy your record.

Mikey


Mikey,

I have to say, calling someone ignorant, insulting, disrespectful and being part of the graduate decline of artists, and calling their posts clueless, is rather disrespectful and insulting in itself. It's just someones opinion. It's not yours, obviously, and I don't agree either, but it's not more than that.

Your post is full of sophism. That you work in the music industry, and have knowledge of the music industry, doesn't mean you have any knowledge about piracy. I'd guess you have a very one-sided view on piracy.

I understand there's a lot of emotion in your post, but this is never a good way too win an argument.

Kyo,

Is there anyway to hear a sample of your cd in better audioquality? I like the music a lot, and if I like the audio quality, I'd like to buy your cd.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:35 am 
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ocuj wrote:
Your post is full of sophism.

Examples please?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:59 am 
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ocuj wrote:
Kyo,

Is there anyway to hear a sample of your cd in better audioquality? I like the music a lot, and if I like the audio quality, I'd like to buy your cd.


Thanks for the kind words, ocuj! :)

You're right, the audio quality on MySpace is not a good indication of the CD's sound. Try this site instead:
http://www.ilike.com/artist/Relocator

We also contributed a full track (as a 320kbps mp3) to this free online compilation:
http://antmanix.5gigs.net

If you can find the way around that Windows Live structure (Mirror 2), you should
manage to download the individual file without the other 500 MB (It's disc 5 track 1).
That should give you a pretty good idea of the album's sound quality. :)


Since you're from the Netherlands, the best way for you to order the CD is via our own web store where shipping is already included in the CD price (we make the most from direct sales, too):
http://relocator-project.com/index2.php?m=40

When you order from us directly, you get instant access to mp3s or FLAC files! :)
And for Mikey and other iTunes customers: We are offering a PDF download of our
CD booklet on the media page - http://relocator-project.com/index2.php?m=10


I will comment on the rest of the discussion later. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:06 am 
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ocuj wrote:
Mikey,

I have to say, calling someone ignorant, insulting, disrespectful and being part of the graduate decline of artists, and calling their posts clueless, is rather disrespectful and insulting in itself. It's just someones opinion. It's not yours, obviously, and I don't agree either, but it's not more than that.

Your post is full of sophism. That you work in the music industry, and have knowledge of the music industry, doesn't mean you have any knowledge about piracy. I'd guess you have a very one-sided view on piracy.

I understand there's a lot of emotion in your post, but this is never a good way too win an argument.


I stand by everything I said, and I have a very intimate knowledge of piracy too, thanks very much. And I know first hand how damaging it can be to artists.

Have you ever released an album? Have you ever worked directly on the release and promotion of an album? Have you ever felt the sting of seeing an album you worked on listed on Torrent sites before it even hits the streets?

I'm not going to contribute to this thread any further, as I've said all I want to say. I'm reminded every time I get into a debate with someone online that it's an utterly futile exercise and a complete waste of time... and boy have I wasted a lot of time here already.

It is nice to see that this discussion has sparked some activity on this board though, which was becoming a bit of a ghost town.

Mikey

p.s. Kyo - really digging the album.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Mikey wrote:
ocuj wrote:
Mikey,

I have to say, calling someone ignorant, insulting, disrespectful and being part of the graduate decline of artists, and calling their posts clueless, is rather disrespectful and insulting in itself. It's just someones opinion. It's not yours, obviously, and I don't agree either, but it's not more than that.

Your post is full of sophism. That you work in the music industry, and have knowledge of the music industry, doesn't mean you have any knowledge about piracy. I'd guess you have a very one-sided view on piracy.

I understand there's a lot of emotion in your post, but this is never a good way too win an argument.


I stand by everything I said, and I have a very intimate knowledge of piracy too, thanks very much. And I know first hand how damaging it can be to artists.

Have you ever released an album? Have you ever worked directly on the release and promotion of an album? Have you ever felt the sting of seeing an album you worked on listed on Torrent sites before it even hits the streets?

I'm not going to contribute to this thread any further, as I've said all I want to say. I'm reminded every time I get into a debate with someone online that it's an utterly futile exercise and a complete waste of time... and boy have I wasted a lot of time here already.

It is nice to see that this discussion has sparked some activity on this board though, which was becoming a bit of a ghost town.

Mikey


I didn't say that your wrong, I said I think your post was insulting. It's all in the way you wrote it.

And no, I've never released an albem, nor worked directly on a release of one. And I most likely never will. I don't pretend to know how it feels when your album get's pirated before street date, but I assume it sucks big time.

I did read a lot about piracy though. I don't think it's a good thing, but I don't think the industry works well in it's present state either. The only good reason against piracy I ever read is the one you mentioned. The artist is not in charge of his own music anymore. All the other arguments, or facts, are just as argueable as the arguments and facts that are pro-piracy. And no, I don't base anything on anecdotal evidence on the internet.

I think a debate is only an utterly futile exercise when your only goal is to convince someone of your opinion. Personally I like to debate to hear opinions of others and to get a different angle on a matter.

cbr1000f wrote:
Examples please?


Here goes:
"As someone who actually works in the music industry..." Mikey is an expert on this matter because he works in the music industry.
"because they read anecdotal evidence on the internet to support their already flawed perspective of the music business" Both statements are not fact.
"And if you really did know what you were talking about, you'd also know that even 20-30 years ago it wouldn't make anyone a billionaire either." Matwey can't answer this. If he does know what he's talking about, he has to agree with Mikey, or else he has to admit that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
"People who have attitudes like this are part of the gradual decline of artists being able to make any money at all with their art." Not all people with this attitude are part of this. It's also not the only reason causing the problem.
""...the disrespect you have for struggling artists who are simply trying to get paid for their work..." Appart from 1 sentence, Matwey didn't show any disrespect. Even that 1 sentence is debatable.

Kyo wrote:

Thanks for the kind words, ocuj!

Kyo,

Thanks for the links! I'll check them out tomorrow and let you know. No need to thank me for the kind words, the music is really cool, so it's all meant.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:23 pm 
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Kyo wrote:
Since you're from the Netherlands, the best way for you to order the CD is via our own web store where shipping is already included in the CD price (we make the most from direct sales, too):
http://relocator-project.com/index2.php?m=40

When you order from us directly, you get instant access to mp3s or FLAC files! :)
And for Mikey and other iTunes customers: We are offering a PDF download of our
CD booklet on the media page - http://relocator-project.com/index2.php?m=10


He Kyo,

That song was pretty kickass. Just ordered the cd and am downloading the FLAC at this moment. I'm really curious about the rest of the cd.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:22 am 
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Matwey wrote:
That is a nice excuse. Let's say you sold 1000 tracks for $1 -- does it cover your expenses?


Matwey wrote:
I'm not on the attack


First of all, of course you're on the attack. The idea that I would need an excuse for something I said is in itself an attack on my previous statements.

How does "does it cover your expenses" relating to a randomly picked number help this discussion? Are you trying to imply that our expectations are unrealistic? Because that would be pretty funny, seeing how you don't have the slightest idea a) how much the production of the album cost and b) how many albums we've already sold. :lol:


Mikey wrote:
Non-commercial music does sell. It just doesn't shift in numbers like mainstream pop acts, and this is why people sharing that non-commercial music without the consent of the owner of the work is particularly damaging to the artist.

Exactly. It's really quite silly for Matwey here to lecture us on these things AFTER we've seen the effects of piracy first hand. I know exactly what our sales numbers were like before the album was available from illegal sources and I know how they changed after that. It's all I need to know about the effectiveness of piracy as an (unwanted) promotional tool vs. its negative influence on actual sales.


Matwey wrote:
Kyo, look at it this way:

I'm here creating some viral activity for your album, making a complete idiot out of myself, such a disgusting bastard, a devil in disguise. So that people would take it as I'm completely wrong and you're right, so they simply go and buy your album... just like Mikey did. :lol:


Good work! :wink:


ocuj wrote:
He Kyo,

That song was pretty kickass. Just ordered the cd and am downloading the FLAC at this moment. I'm really curious about the rest of the cd.


Great to hear that, thanks a lot! :) Let me know what you think of the full album once you've given it a few spins!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Kyo wrote:
Exactly. It's really quite silly for Matwey here to lecture us on these things AFTER we've seen the effects of piracy first hand. I know exactly what our sales numbers were like before the album was available from illegal sources and I know how they changed after that. It's all I need to know about the effectiveness of piracy as an (unwanted) promotional tool vs. its negative influence on actual sales.


Don't want to be a pain, but how exactly do you know this? How is this measured? Did you check all downloadsites from the day of release? Or did you start checking when you noticed a drop in your sales? Besides piracy, they're could be other reasons. I remember the beginning of this year when I saw Relocator all over the internet. Never checked it out though, was occupied with other stuff than listening to music, but I was curious. Now when I see Relocator, it's like, oh yeah Relocator... That's how it goes with all commercial activities.

BTW, check your PM. I send you some links to your cd which you can order & takedown the sh*t out of.


Kyo wrote:
Matwey wrote:
Kyo, look at it this way:

I'm here creating some viral activity for your album, making a complete idiot out of myself, such a disgusting bastard, a devil in disguise. So that people would take it as I'm completely wrong and you're right, so they simply go and buy your album... just like Mikey did. :lol:


Good work! :wink:


Worked for me too. I checked your music out because I at first I felt somewhat bad for you (weird, I know), and I really liked the music. Ended up being a customer.

Kyo wrote:
Great to hear that, thanks a lot! :) Let me know what you think of the full album once you've given it a few spins!


I'll let you know. I have the FLAC's already, but I'll wait for the cd. Nothing beats a nice new cd. Let you know what I think of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:08 pm 
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ocuj wrote:
Kyo wrote:
Exactly. It's really quite silly for Matwey here to lecture us on these things AFTER we've seen the effects of piracy first hand. I know exactly what our sales numbers were like before the album was available from illegal sources and I know how they changed after that. It's all I need to know about the effectiveness of piracy as an (unwanted) promotional tool vs. its negative influence on actual sales.


Don't want to be a pain, but how exactly do you know this? How is this measured? Did you check all downloadsites from the day of release? Or did you start checking when you noticed a drop in your sales? Besides piracy, they're could be other reasons. I remember the beginning of this year when I saw Relocator all over the internet. Never checked it out though, was occupied with other stuff than listening to music, but I was curious. Now when I see Relocator, it's like, oh yeah Relocator... That's how it goes with all commercial activities.


Well, you always reach some people later through nothing but persistence. :D But by now I have a pretty good idea how much of a promotional effect a review or a thread on a forum usually has and sadly there was an obvious drop in demand when the first downloads hit the net despite the fact that there was a lot of new Relocator coverage (reviews) being published at the time (we hardly got any reviews at all before, so those were really quite fresh at the time). Even though the number of people who knew about us was multiplying and word about Relocator was reaching many new countries that way, sales were actually worse than during the pre-order phase where only a rather limited group of people on a few forums and mailing lists knew about us at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:36 am 
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Kyo wrote:
Well, you always reach some people later through nothing but persistence. :D But by now I have a pretty good idea how much of a promotional effect a review or a thread on a forum usually has and sadly there was an obvious drop in demand when the first downloads hit the net despite the fact that there was a lot of new Relocator coverage (reviews) being published at the time (we hardly got any reviews at all before, so those were really quite fresh at the time). Even though the number of people who knew about us was multiplying and word about Relocator was reaching many new countries that way, sales were actually worse than during the pre-order phase where only a rather limited group of people on a few forums and mailing lists knew about us at all.


No need to argue with that. I see piracy had a big influence in your case. I'm sorry to hear.


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