SATRIANI SUES COLDPLAY

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GlasgowGuy
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Jeroen wrote:
wasoota wrote:But then of course asking for "any and all profits" from a song that only shares a section of melody is way over the top as well,
It would appear that you haven't been paying attention; which surprises me from a lawyer.

The songs have the exact tempo. Same chord structure and share a good portion of the melody, in particular the so called 'hook' of the song.

Your argument that because they supposedly did license the track from Kraftwerk and thus this case must be something else than theft is a logical fallacy. You presuppose that every criminal act or wrongdoing can only be preceded by another wrongful act.
The guy's a lawyer right? What, because he tells us he is, on the internet? Yeh coz no one lies on the internet! :roll: I smell shite!
GlasgowGuy
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wasoota wrote:They did license it from Kraftwerk... Anyway, like everyone else here, I was voicing my personal opinion, not stating some law of logic or nature. And I certainly don't feel the need to prove any sort of professional track record here. I'll admit my attention wavered somewhere back when the beer discussion started. I'm more a coffee guy.

I also never said Satriani didn't have a good case, I'm just disappointed that it came to this. Of course both sides share some fault at the escalation, but Satriani pulled the litigation trigger, so I am more disappointed in him. - Plus the fact that he went in with all the guns of the celebrity litigation game blazing doesn't win him any brownie points with me, because I feel that artists should differ from corporations at least in how they deal amongst each other, for example seek "reasonable compensation" not "any and all profits". And make an effort to minimize collateral damage from a lawsuit, not maximize it. The (apparently) idealized image I held of Satriani so far would have had him handling this more along the lines of Tom Petty, not Ivana Trump. Oh well.


(To any Ivana Trump fans: No offense intended of course, she had every right to do what she did and I wish her well.)
Hold on here, what the heck are you on about JS pulled the litigation finger? Haven't you read what he said online - that coldplay refused to talk about it - he was forced into doing so, just like we all would if we felt someone had ripped off our work. WHo are you to say what JS should be seeking from coldplay - all profits or whatever - that is his own choice and if he feels the work has been a total copy of his work, then why the hell should coldplay make money off it then?
cosmic ape
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If you seek for any and all profits, I'd think the other part would be more open to settle out of court, and stop ignoring your calls... :guitar
wasoota
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cosmic ape wrote:If you seek for any and all profits, I'd think the other part would be more open to settle out of court, and stop ignoring your calls... :guitar
Yeah, that's obviously the play. It will get your attention all right. Nothing unusual there, but very 'corporate litigation': "Settle, or we'll take it all away, because we can."
GlasgowGuy wrote:Hold on here, what the heck are you on about JS pulled the litigation finger? Haven't you read what he said online - that coldplay refused to talk about it - he was forced into doing so, just like we all would if we felt someone had ripped off our work. WHo are you to say what JS should be seeking from coldplay - all profits or whatever - that is his own choice and if he feels the work has been a total copy of his work, then why the hell should coldplay make money off it then?
Satriani is free to do what he likes, I'm free to dislike what he does (or rather how he does it). I think I've stated my reasons, most here obviously disagree. That's fine with me. The way things are, the outcome was pretty much set the moment he sued: Hardly anyone can afford not to settle a case like this in the US, even if they're right, because it simply costs more to get to a ruling than it would cost to settle. So I'm sure he will get some money out of this, MTV Europe knows who he is as well now and he can even tell himself he kind of had a Grammy-nominated hit song. :D Good for him. I'm turning the page.
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notavirtuoso
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wasoota wrote: and he can even tell himself he kind of had a Grammy-nominated hit song. :D Good for him. I'm turning the page.
Perhaps you aren't aware that Joe has been nominated for a Grammy 14 times.
wasoota
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notavirtuoso wrote:
wasoota wrote: and he can even tell himself he kind of had a Grammy-nominated hit song. :D Good for him. I'm turning the page.
Perhaps you aren't aware that Joe has been nominated for a Grammy 14 times.
I wasn't aware of the exact number, no. So now it's 14 and a half (LIT. PEND.). :D
Krr
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I haven't read the whole topic, I hope this isn't old news to all of you... These are a couple of songs mentioned in the comments to one of the comparison videos on YouTube, the second one is definitely older than "If I Could Fly":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUXda-RTE_c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least I'm not quite as convinced anymore...

Also, the melody is a little bit similar to another Coldplay song, maybe several, I haven't really listened to Coldplay.
cosmic ape
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Krr wrote:I haven't read the whole topic, I hope this isn't old news to all of you... These are a couple of songs mentioned in the comments to one of the comparison videos on YouTube, the second one is definitely older than "If I Could Fly":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUXda-RTE_c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least I'm not quite as convinced anymore...

Also, the melody is a little bit similar to another Coldplay song, maybe several, I haven't really listened to Coldplay.

Those examples should convince further of how much CP's song resembles Joe's. In the Cat Stevens song, you have the same progression, but the melody is different. They have a common note on the beginning and another on the end (which is why most people will hear as pretty much the same). But everything in between is different. The notes don't last the same, most of the notes are different. It is a whole new melody altogether. It's a five note motif that is sequenced.
On the Enanitos Verdes tune, the first three note motif is the same, but that's it. Tempo, feel, rhythmic pattern and chord progression are different. Joe starts with the motif and moves on to something else (a more "call and response" approach). The Enanitos (who I love, btw) have that three note motif, then another one (they're rhythmically different), and then they sequence the whole thing, with little variations...

All these examples only let you know how you can develop different approaches and have a new overall musical result, using very similar tools. Yes, some notes will be pretty similar. However, on this case, it's not just the three first notes. It's the tempo, the feel, the rhythm, the chord progression and a significant portion of Joe's melody that is present in the other song. The melody is the only thing in this case that can be subjected to copyright, I think. But, even though you cannot copyright a chord progression, etc. you will see that the context of both songs is too similar to ignore... That is not the case with the songs you presented...

Cheers...
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Bryceybhoy
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cosmic ape wrote:
Krr wrote: you will see that the context of both songs is too similar to ignore... That is not the case with the songs you presented...

Cheers...
This doesn't mean he'll win, though. I can see the resemblance. But, to be honest, it's very slight and I'm pretty sure when the court plays both songs outright, they won't notice a thing.

I hope he wins (you all know my feelings on Coldplay) but chances are he won't.
cosmic ape
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Bryceybhoy wrote: This doesn't mean he'll win, though.
Not at all, but these two songs, among others, are being brought to the discussion on this and other forums as "proof" of Joe's tune not being "original". I had read about this misinformation somewhere else, but since somebody mentioned it here, I figured I'd elaborate on it. Like I said before, those examples don't do anything but to prove how you can still sound different (albeit using very similar tools), instead of the original attempt of using these songs to question Joe Satriani's own originality.

Fortunately, this forum is great in the matter that you can actually discuss a lot of different topics without falling into the "Troll Wars". Well, for the most part... :wink:
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lydian2000
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lydian2000 wrote:
Sandyman wrote:Did anybody argue already that both Coldplay and Satriani sound very much like Cat Stevens?

Take a listen to "Heaven" - 1973 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-jEdBqbbE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If there should be any lawsuit, it should be Cat Stevens against Coldplay and Satriani :idea:

I strongly disagree, the melody is remotely similar(same Key/scale sequence but with different repetition/timing/order) but that's it.

Coldplay used the same notes/timing as Joe's..plus obviously "borrowed" some other parts of the track.

again just listen carefully to the two tracks(satch's and coldplay's), this is so clear-cut to me that's it shouldn't be up for discussion.

What makes me bend so strongly towards Satch is that:

A - it's not your usual Coldplay chorus melody(especially repeating notes)
B - they publicly declared years ago that they were "very good at borrowing".

It'll be interesting to know how the lawyers will twist that one though.

:)

:peace
:roll: for those not bothering to read that thread from page 1, and for me having to quote myself from an earlier page.


:peace
cosmic ape
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Lydian, thanks for the reminder! I seriously did not remember your post... there's too many already... I'd like to think I did add something to the argument, though... :headbang

P.S.: There are more songs related to this discussion floating around somewhere...
Krr
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cosmic ape wrote:
Krr wrote:I haven't read the whole topic, I hope this isn't old news to all of you... These are a couple of songs mentioned in the comments to one of the comparison videos on YouTube, the second one is definitely older than "If I Could Fly":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G57CgtX-BsI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUXda-RTE_c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least I'm not quite as convinced anymore...

Also, the melody is a little bit similar to another Coldplay song, maybe several, I haven't really listened to Coldplay.

Those examples should convince further of how much CP's song resembles Joe's. In the Cat Stevens song, you have the same progression, but the melody is different. They have a common note on the beginning and another on the end (which is why most people will hear as pretty much the same). But everything in between is different. The notes don't last the same, most of the notes are different. It is a whole new melody altogether. It's a five note motif that is sequenced.
On the Enanitos Verdes tune, the first three note motif is the same, but that's it. Tempo, feel, rhythmic pattern and chord progression are different. Joe starts with the motif and moves on to something else (a more "call and response" approach). The Enanitos (who I love, btw) have that three note motif, then another one (they're rhythmically different), and then they sequence the whole thing, with little variations...

All these examples only let you know how you can develop different approaches and have a new overall musical result, using very similar tools. Yes, some notes will be pretty similar. However, on this case, it's not just the three first notes. It's the tempo, the feel, the rhythm, the chord progression and a significant portion of Joe's melody that is present in the other song. The melody is the only thing in this case that can be subjected to copyright, I think. But, even though you cannot copyright a chord progression, etc. you will see that the context of both songs is too similar to ignore... That is not the case with the songs you presented...

Cheers...
Well... you're right; neither of the two are identical to "If I Could Fly" in the way that the Coldplay song is. I didn't take those two songs as proof that Joe himself copied the melody, I just found the similarities interesting. Actually, I don't find it unlikely that someone could have convinced half the internet that Joe stole Cat Stevens song, had the Coldplay song never been written :).
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Bryceybhoy
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Very interesting article....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28353868/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Instrumentalrockrocks
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Nothing to do with this all but.... I just have to say it:
Cat Stevens is one of the most overrated musician of all time...


Groove On 8)
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