Joe Satriani - Super Colossal

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Tony S
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lydian7 wrote:
Tony S wrote:
lydian7 wrote: with around 90-95% of his material relying on diatonic framework and uninspiring blues licks.
Maybe Joe just enjoys playing blues licks these days, and there's plenty of people who like listening to blues licks. He's damn good at playing blues licks, so c'est la vie !
There comes a time when a musician does what he wants to do, not what you might want him to. To keep complaining that his music is lacking this or lacking that is implying that he should be playing how you want him to play. If he's changed, he's changed, and that's all there is to it ! :wink:
I know, and it's a shame. When he first started he was pushing boundaries and solidifying his musical legacy. Now his material lacks innovation, and he seems content with writing easy-listening, commercial music, which is fine by me. I just wish I could pick up a new Satch cd and hear some fresh ideas and challenging sound worlds for a change, and I haven't heard any of them from him since E.O.C or Crystal Planet.
I hear what you're saying, it's just that you have at times dismissed the likes of Strange Beautiful Music and Is Their Love in Space as bad albums (I can't remember your exact words !), just because they don't meet your standards of boundary pushing, or challenging listening, or lots of technical terms you come out with (I'll stay out of the technical musical theory discussions because I don't have sufficient knowledge on that front !).

However, what is music all about when it comes down to it? Its a medium from which pleasure can be derived from listening. It doesn't always have to be experimental, pushing boundaries, challenging, or if I may borrow one of your phrases regarding one of Steve's pieces "an advanced study in rhythm and unorthodox grooves".
Think of it like other things you can get pleasure from - lets say food for example. Sure, sometimes it's interesting and very rewarding to try something new and unorthodox - nouvelle cuisine would never have been popular otherwise ! But at other times something plain and simple but well cooked can't be beaten. A nice Shepherds Pie maybe or (especially for the Brits) Fish and Chips ! At times nothing else comes close. And if you know somewhere that does really, really good quality Fish and Chips, then its a gastronomic delight !

So there you go, Joe's latest stuff is the quality fish and chips of music ! Hmmm, not sure if this is really what I intended to say !! :shock: :wink:
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lydian7
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Gulliver wrote:
lydian7 wrote:
Kudos for the sensible reply, it's refreshing to hear someone actually explain their opinions coherantly for a change.
:roll:
So, my opinion was un-sensible, right? :wink: Because I didn't agree with your definition of what groove is, right? :lol: You see... there are grooooovy songs AND songs with... just a rhythm, i.e. songs that do not groove. Sorry, English is not my native language, but that's how I perceive the word "groove"!
I wasn't talking about you, don't worry. Just some people on these boards think that typing swear words in block capitals constitutes a valid opinion. No, I completey respect your opinion Gulliver, even if we do have opposing views sometimes. :)
Tony S wrote: However, what is music all about when it comes down to it? Its a medium from which pleasure can be derived from listening. It doesn't always have to be experimental, pushing boundaries, challenging, or if I may borrow one of your phrases regarding one of Steve's pieces "an advanced study in rhythm and unorthodox grooves".
Think of it like other things you can get pleasure from - lets say food for example. Sure, sometimes it's interesting and very rewarding to try something new and unorthodox - nouvelle cuisine would never have been popular otherwise ! But at other times something plain and simple but well cooked can't be beaten. A nice Shepherds Pie maybe or (especially for the Brits) Fish and Chips ! At times nothing else comes close. And if you know somewhere that does really, really good quality Fish and Chips, then its a gastronomic delight !
I'm always sceptical of an artist that chooses to play it safe and follow a tried an tested formula or to simply regurgitate what's been done before. For me, in doing that, that is in always sticking to diatonic progressions, common scales and standard song structures, instantly stunts ones unequivical musical expression. The albums that remain with us over the years are the albums that have something to say, and that utilise new and interesting compositional techniques to create something unique and beautiful, and to bring a fresh and uncompromising outlook to the world. Passion & Warfare, Surfing with the Alien, Fire Garden and the like, are all albums that did this. They all brought new things to the table and set the standards for things to come. Because of their innovation and unique artistic statements, they also continue to be the most fun albums to listen to, and the ones that will almost definately stand the test of time. In my opinion, Joe's last three albums will be forgotten, and the albums that will be remembered are SWTA, FIABD, TE, JS, CP, and possibly EOC. I didn't enjoy listening to his last three, and I certainly didn't hear anything new or unique on them.

In other words, I can't stand fish & chips! ;)
Tony S
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lydian7 wrote:
I'm always sceptical of an artist that chooses to play it safe and follow a tried an tested formula or to simply regurgitate what's been done before. For me, in doing that, that is in always sticking to diatonic progressions, common scales and standard song structures, instantly stunts ones unequivical musical expression. The albums that remain with us over the years are the albums that have something to say, and that utilise new and interesting compositional techniques to create something unique and beautiful, and to bring a fresh and uncompromising outlook to the world. Passion & Warfare, Surfing with the Alien, Fire Garden and the like, are all albums that did this. They all brought new things to the table and set the standards for things to come. Because of their innovation and unique artistic statements, they also continue to be the most fun albums to listen to, and the ones that will almost definately stand the test of time. In my opinion, Joe's last three albums will be forgotten, and the albums that will be remembered are SWTA, FIABD, TE, JS, CP, and possibly EOC. I didn't enjoy listening to his last three, and I certainly didn't hear anything new or unique on them.

In other words, I can't stand fish & chips! ;)
The albums that you mention that stay with us over the years are all great albums, yes. In that category I would add things like A Night At The Opera by Queen, or any of the 3 studio albums released by Hendrix in his lifetime, or Vivid by Living Colour - any number of innovative and fresh sounding works.

But at the same time, there are other albums that don't fit into those criteria, which didn't really bring anything much new, but still give as much listening pleasure depending on what mood you're in. Lets say Highway to Hell by AC/DC or Electric by The Cult or whatever. From my personal point of view, those albums will stay with me just as much.

As for Joe's, well SWTA was the first tune of his I ever heard, when the album of the same name had just been released. I bought the album, then bought Not Of This Earth, then all the others that followed in sequence. I can honestly say I haven't been disappointed by any of them. I actually get more pleasure at present by listening to Is Their Love in Space than I do Surfing With... ! Having said that I enjoy them all. But the way I feel, and the way I'm humming along in my mind to the title track of Is Their..... tells me all I need to know. That it is great music !
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lydian7
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Tony S wrote: As for Joe's, well SWTA was the first tune of his I ever heard, when the album of the same name had just been released. I bought the album, then bought Not Of This Earth, then all the others that followed in sequence. I can honestly say I haven't been disappointed by any of them. I actually get more pleasure at present by listening to Is Their Love in Space than I do Surfing With... ! Having said that I enjoy them all. But the way I feel, and the way I'm humming along in my mind to the title track of Is Their..... tells me all I need to know. That it is great music !
I've been a Joe fan for around 12 years, and I've been listening to and supporting his music over that period. I'm really glad you enjoyed his last three albums, but do you think they are of the same standard as his previous works? As much as I try I can't seem to hold an interest in Joe's new music, and judging from some of the other comments about the new album I'm not the only one.
Tony S wrote: The albums that you mention that stay with us over the years are all great albums, yes. In that category I would add things like A Night At The Opera by Queen, or any of the 3 studio albums released by Hendrix in his lifetime, or Vivid by Living Colour - any number of innovative and fresh sounding works.

But at the same time, there are other albums that don't fit into those criteria, which didn't really bring anything much new, but still give as much listening pleasure depending on what mood you're in. Lets say Highway to Hell by AC/DC or Electric by The Cult or whatever. From my personal point of view, those albums will stay with me just as much.
I suppose I'm just a demanding musical listener, and if I listen to something that I feel is stock or sub-standard in anyway, or which fails to hold my attention, I just turn off.

Hendrix only released a handful of official albums, and although his departure was premature, every single one of those albums are living treasures. True, not every album has to be the 'be all and end all' of musical innovation, but at least it should bring something new to the table, whether it is succesful in it's execution or not. I suppose I would give the example of Ryuichi Sakamoto's work - Bttb, Illustrated Musical Encyclopedia, 1996, and Smoochy ect, are all genre defying albums which accomplish their goals. Other albums such as Heartbeat, Futurista, and Sweet Revenge, fall down in some areas, but each strive to produce some kind of unique musical statement. I think all art should be like this, not just music, and good art should always challenge our perceptions and mindsets. To simply stick to a diatonic framework and to coast along the road of predictability is a form of plagerism in my book, and is a sign of a dishonest artist. I'm sure alot of people would disagree with me about this, as they usually do, but I stand by my laurels. This is how I honestly feel about art and the music industry in general. If you want fun then why not go for a few beers with your mates, or bungee jump naked off the eiffel Tower or something? Music goes alot deeper than that for me.
Gulliver
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"To simply stick to a diatonic framework and to coast along the road of predictability is a form of plagerism in my book, and is a sign of a dishonest artist. I'm sure alot of people would disagree with me about this, as they usually do..."

I don't do this every time :lol: but I have to say... There are a lot of beauty hiding in a simple "diatonic framework" and Satch (as no one else!) can bring this beauty up. That's where his main strength lies, imo. I am a big fan of Holdsworth too, and if I want to listen to some challenging stuff full of "chromaticity" and mind boggling progressions I'd reach for his records. But sometimes I want to listen to something like Satch's music - relatively simple, yet very tasteful and stylish. Btw, it works better as a background "noise" to your other activities (surfing the Net, for instance). It's just great for this.
"Dishonest artist"? Well, as long as Satch enjoys what he does as a musician, you can't call him dishonest.
Tony S
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lydian7 wrote: I'm really glad you enjoyed his last three albums, but do you think they are of the same standard as his previous works?
Well, I haven't actually heard Super Colossal yet, apart from the short excerpts on Joe's site so can't fairly comment on that. But as far as SBM, and ITLIS go, the answer is yes if I judge their standard by how much I enjoy listening to them.
lydian7 wrote: Hendrix only released a handful of official albums, and although his departure was premature, every single one of those albums are living treasures.
You won't find any argument from me there !!

Who's to say if Jimi had lived, that by his 11th studio album he wouldn't be playing traditional blues or something though rather than trying to push the boundaries (he'd already done that to the nth degree !) ?
lydian7 wrote: True, not every album has to be the 'be all and end all' of musical innovation, but at least it should bring something new to the table, whether it is succesful in it's execution or not. I suppose I would give the example of Ryuichi Sakamoto's work - Bttb, Illustrated Musical Encyclopedia, 1996, and Smoochy ect, are all genre defying albums which accomplish their goals. Other albums such as Heartbeat, Futurista, and Sweet Revenge, fall down in some areas, but each strive to produce some kind of unique musical statement. I think all art should be like this, not just music, and good art should always challenge our perceptions and mindsets.
Hmm, I'm not familiar with the Sakamoto albums so can't comment on those. However, I disagree that all good art should always challenge our perceptions and mindsets. As far as visual art goes for example, I would far rather look at and admire a skilfully executed painting of almost anything - an animal or some aircraft or whatever - than some nonsense like Tracey Emin's unmade bed or something like that. :roll:
lydian7 wrote: To simply stick to a diatonic framework and to coast along the road of predictability is a form of plagerism in my book, and is a sign of a dishonest artist. I'm sure alot of people would disagree with me about this, as they usually do, but I stand by my laurels.
Well, watching and listening to Joe's introductory comments to each of the new tracks on his website, I believe he is writing and performing what is coming from his heart. Plagiarism is when you blatantly copy something, and then pass it off as your own. I don't see how Joe can possibly be accused of that, or dishonesty !! :shock:

As for "diatonic frameworks", when I listen to music, any music, I don't get hung up on figuring out what time signature it's in, what chord structure is being used, whether its based on diatonic scales, pentatonic, phrygian, mixolydian, dioxymethylpropylstygian or whatever ! They're not important to me (admittedly I don't fully understand that stuff). All I care about is whether it moves me in some way, and I like the sound of it. [/quote]
lydian7 wrote: This is how I honestly feel about art and the music industry in general. If you want fun then why not go for a few beers with your mates, or bungee jump naked off the eiffel Tower or something? Music goes alot deeper than that for me.
So music can't be about fun !?? Sheesh, what is something like Little Green Men by Steve for example then?
Of course music is about more than fun. Music is capable of invoking almost every human emotion. Music is more than just fun to me, and surely all of us, but fun is a perfectly valid feeling for it to induce, or reason for wanting to listen to something as well.


As for Joe, I just feel he doesn't really need to prove anything anymore. If he's playing the music he's happy creating and performing, then that's fine. If people like it, and want to listen, that's great. If they don't, so be it.
Bono
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***PREMIUM TICKETS AVAILABLE FOR UK SHOWS***

Taken from the webmasters post on the talk2joe section of satriani.com:

********************************************
also! just finalized, there will be premium ticket packages for the UK shows! there will be two types-- one is an upgrade for people who already have tickets and the other includes tickets. you can see some dates over at the etix.com site (offsale for now). more details coming soon!

********************************************
shacks
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UK PREMIUM TICKS ARE ON SALE NOW!!!!

£120.00 Platinum Package Includes:

One Reserved Ticket, a Meet & Greet and Photo with Joe Satriani, an exclusive Platinum T-shirt, a VIP Laminate, Joe's signature Guitar Pick, an On Stage Tour of Joe's Guitar World and Photo with his guitar. Two lucky guests will be brought back onstage per show to watch the show's encore from the side of the stage!

£90.00 Diamond Package Includes:

Meet & Greet and Photo with Joe Satriani, an exclusive Platinum T-shirt, a VIP Laminate, Joe's signature Guitar Pick, an On Stage Tour of Joe's Guitar World and Photo with his guitar. Two lucky guests will be brought back onstage per show to watch the show's encore from the side of the stage! *NO TICKET INCLUDED IN THIS PACKAGE. YOU MUST HAVE ALREADY PURCHASED A TICKET TO ATTEND.*

http://event.etix.com/ticket/online/vie ... d=satriani

Just got mine!!!! :D

shacks
Ant711UK
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Just got mine too!

Organisation seems pretty weak over at Satch.com.
I think I'll have more luck asking questions here.

I have row B tickets for London but as there's no package listed for London I thought I'd better buy Bournemouth in case I miss out. I ended up with a ticket in row 24 and not within the first 6 rows as in the package description! I realise they messed up with tickets being on sale before Satriani or Etix were ready to go, but it's a pain having to guess which is the best way to get a ticket.

There's very little info on how the packages work and the confirmation email is simply that without any info on the package.

Oh well knowing my luck they'll list London packages now and I'll end up wishing I'd waited.

If anyone has any idea how they run the packages over there can they post it please.

Although I'm moaning about the way they've sold the tickets, I'm really looking forward to the shows 8)

Tony
shacks
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I dont want to be the bringer of bad news but they are selling ticks for London now! Also in the description of the UK packages it says just "reserved ticket" not a ticket for a specific row. Anyway mate you have second row ticks for London and Premium for B'mouth so its all good!

shacks
Ant711UK
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Typical :roll: :lol:

I lost out on a London Evo with Vai within an hour and had to go to Wolverhampton in the end. I buy the nearest Satriani package to me expecting the same thing in case they don't list London and they're all still up for sale??? Mmmm.......!!!

Oh well you live and learn.

There's so little info available on the site that I don't know if I could even buy a London one now and offer the other one out to someone else.

I've met Satch before and I love the guy but his webby bloke has created a bit of a fuck-up for the punters really. It may well be totally out of his hands, but a bit more info on the site would've helped me.

Yep I noticed the description was different afterwards too :roll:

Anyway at least I got 'a' ticket for Satch, the Vai Evo was looking dodgy for me as they sold out pretty quick but I got there in the end with that.

Tony
rocknuts
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:D Hey Hey! :D

Just got my premium ticket Shacks, See ya there!!! I'll be needing your camera skills again if thats ok? :)

(And if the son of a bitch thief is reading this who was there the last time and you plan to attend,) I'm sure you know who you are!:x I will be keeping a close eye on what goes on in there. It just wasn't on.

Regards Shacks,

Rocknuts
Last edited by rocknuts on Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Ant711UK
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Rocknuts, Shacks...

I know I should ask over at Satriani.com about this instead of a Vai forum thread (sorry mods) but....

If either of you know where to get details of how it works with get in times and collecting the pass etc for the premium packages can you post a link here please.

Cheers Tony
rocknuts
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Hmmm!

Shacks :?:

:)
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lydian7
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Tony S wrote: So music can't be about fun !?? Sheesh, what is something like Little Green Men by Steve for example then?
Of course music is about more than fun. Music is capable of invoking almost every human emotion. Music is more than just fun to me, and surely all of us, but fun is a perfectly valid feeling for it to induce, or reason for wanting to listen to something as well.


As for Joe, I just feel he doesn't really need to prove anything anymore. If he's playing the music he's happy creating and performing, then that's fine. If people like it, and want to listen, that's great. If they don't, so be it.
I know Satriani's music has always been about having fun, and of course that's a valid form of musical expression, but the music I enjoyed from him was the music that went just that little bit deeper. I find his latest music quite shallow in comparison to, say, Lords of Karma or |Flying in a Blue Dream for instance. I don't buy into the whole philosophy that music's soul purpose is about 'having fun'. It's a big part of music don't get me wrong, but for me the most beautiful and life asserting music is contemplative, mysterious, and intriguing. The most beautiful pieces of music have the power to disengage you from life, even for a split second, and remind you of your humanity and the deep, enigmatic nature of being human.

Fun music is great of course, but I have deeper respect for musicians, like Steve for instance, who put the art back into music and take it just that little bit further into the deep unknown. That, for me, is the true essence of music.
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