Downloading and p2p

For discussion of all general music topics, Favored Nations artists, Vai-related musicians and all other artists and bands.
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Jeroen
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CymbalSplittingSkinbasher wrote:First of all, the Ferrari/Bay analogy is way off base. That's a rather expensive ride & Mr. Bay might be somewhat hard to get ahold of. I don't see the connection there.
Ok, the connection is taking something without permission under the excuse that it's out of your financial reach. It's the same principle, although you can get in more trouble if you nick a Ferarri :)
Secondly, you know as well as I do that this whole music business industry is a big mess, & I'm not blaming it all on them, but imo, they're a HUGE part of the problem. Why have some artists & bands started their own labels? Oh, I forgot, it's because the major labels are so easy to work with & they give the artist 75% of the earnings, right? :roll: Do you think that greed by the labels might be a factor here? Hmmmm!
Well, if you download something from an artist that is bound to such a label that gives the artist next to nothing of each purchase, aren't you doubly hurting that artist by downloading? It won't help change the labels, that's for sure. Matter of fact, they start to compensate for their losses and the price of cd's will only go up, so that's defenitly not the desired effect.
As for me, I don't have the "I don't care attitude," I care very much & if you seen my music collection of "legal" purchases, you'd probably crap yourself. Oh yeah, & all of my "legally purchased" concert ticket stubs, posters, t-shirts etc...I give a tremendous amount to the music industry, both in time & money, & have done so for almost 30 years. Not 3 years, 30 years.
You know, with each purchase you did, being it a T-shirt, Concert ticket or whatever, you're buying just that. You are not saving credits, although a lot of people seem to think so. That's just not how the Real World (tm) works.
I've spend litterally tens of thousands of dollars at the gas station over the last couple of years. And I often buy extra stuff when I go fill my gas tank, such as smokes or the occasional DVD etc. Whatcha think, after supporting them with so much dough (btw, it's 1.40 Euro per Litre in holland right now), perhaps I should fill my tank without paying today? It's not that shell isn't greedy or anything.....
I agree that another part of the problem is also those that don't ever support the bands & artists that they like, & they EXPECT EVERYTHING for free, without ever giving back in return. As long as you truly support the bands & artists you like, why is there a problem?
Because IMHO, when you start downloading stuff you aren't supposed to download, you're not supporting the artist.
You know, we were talking about a guy like Robert Johnson on another thread, & I know that's a whole different era, but a guy like that would probably have sold his soul to the devil a second time to have the resources available to him that artists have today. RJ travelled more in his time than Lonnie Johnson, Charley Patton & Blind Lemon Jefferson COMBINED! And why? Because he wanted to SHARE his music with people, & I doubt if he ever became extremely wealthy from it.
And if a contemerary artists wants to do that, he can choose so. Just as he can choose not to. THere are countless artists who do, just go check your favorite mp3.com like site.
I definitely contribute to helping my fav bands & artists earn a living & live the lifestyle(s) that they do, & if people like me have to suffer because of all of the people that don't support them & expect free handouts all across the board, that's not only very unfair, its a damn shame too, imo. Every single person that uses p2p formats is not a low-life, scum of the earth cockroach that never buys anything, quite the contrary I'd say.
No, not everone is (and I don't imply you are). But the majority is. It's similar to software. The ammount of shared software and cracked software is huge.
I'm hoping that some of you don't find these statements to reflect your true feelings:

"If you don't purchase music, you therefore forfeit any rights that you may have to listen to that particular music."

"Music should only be listened to, &/or be in the possession of those that can afford to purchase it."
You can't generalize a statement like that, because a good ammount of music is legally available elsewhere.
"If you can't afford to purchase a particular cd, then you don't deserve to to listen to that cd until you can afford to purchase it for yourself, and ONLY for yourself."
I'm not sure what you mean with that last part ' and only for yourself' , but, in general, yes. Sorry. There are tons of things I think I'm entitled to have, but can't afford. But I don't go about obtaining it illigally. When I was in school and cash-less (ol' grandpa Jeroen here :lol:), I had to save up for my favorite CD's. And if you really want a particular CD, it's not an ammount that's the end of the world. Especially for an Artist such as Vai. I mean, I paid the equivelent of 12 Euro's for a full length double DVD (Astoria). I can't even buy a bad B movie here for that ammount.

Anyway, all IMHO.
:)

J.
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Naffis-kun
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Steve says: "I have never even once in my life downloaded a track from the net for free because I know how it effects the artists."

That doesn't really surprise me :). It's good.
But artists don't have to download music because they can make it themselves :D.

I'm not supporting illegal downloading but I still feel sorry for those people who are too poor to buy cd's :(. They are awfully expensive these days, you know. For example, Alive in an ultra world cost me 30 bucks, which is wayyy too much :shock:.
It's hard to be a good person when the cd you want costs that much and you could download it for free anytime you want.
And nobody gets caught from downloading so it's not the same thing as stealing it straight from the store. The coppers have better things to do than sit and watch the p2p networks.
Only the p2p bosses get caught. A single user is always safe.
And THAT'S what makes downloading a considerable choice for the poor.
But what if your friend downloads stuff and burns them onto cd's for you?
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Jeroen
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Sorry, that boat don't float. If you can afford internet access, you're by no means poor.

As for the AIAUW, go check the vai.com store, you'de be pleasantly surprised.
:)
J.
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Jeroen wrote:As for the AIAUW, go check the vai.com store, you'de be pleasantly surprised.
Yeah but the shipping rates of the Vai.com store are a total joke, at least for Canada. But I'm not saying this to encourage people downloading music. I did buy that album (at a local store).
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Naffis-kun
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1) You don't have to be able to access the internet.
You can ask your friends to burn cd's for you. Just like I said :P.
I consider that acceptable if no fee is charged..

2) Umm.. what does AIAUW stand for :)?

Edit: oh, it's Alive in an ultra world.
Yeah.. it's not as expensive in the vai.com store as it was when I bought it.
But I can't order anything from outside Finland because I don't have a VISA card or anything.
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CymbalSplittingSkinbasher
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I respect your position on this matter Jeroen & I understand where you're coming from, although I will add that I feel you're understating the affordability aspect of music products. Internet access is like $25 a month, you'd be extremely lucky to get 2 new cd's for that price.

Back when I was a youngster, music was very, very afforable, not anymore, & this began to happen well before p2p formats were even in existence. Concerts were far cheaper too. Right now, I'm looking at my Kiss & Judas Priest ticket stub from 1979, guess how much to go to that concert? $10!!!!!!!!! How much do you think a ticket would cost for a show like that today? Maybe $50 minimum, & that's probably understating it.

Tell me, do think this is fair:

Say you buy a new cd of one of your favs, because you just think it'll be great because this particular artist/band always puts out quality music. You open it up, put it in, & you think it sucks right off the bat. You give it a bunch more spins to try to like, but nope, not gonna happen, it just simply sucks in your opinion. Now say you paid $14 for the cd, you can't return it because it's already opened. You can trade it in & probably get anywhere from 30-50% of your money back if you're lucky, but that's it. Now do you think that's a fair way for an artist/band to treat people that legally purchase music, esp. that particular artist/bands' fans? Do you believe that it's just the risk you take when you buy something you haven't heard yet & if you think it sucks, well then, "Sorry 'bout your bad luck, we got your cash & that's all that matters."

All I know is that I support the bands & artists that I like by spending my cash on their products & going to their concerts, & I'll continue to do just that. :) :wink:
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Jeroen
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CymbalSplittingSkinbasher wrote: Tell me, do think this is fair:

Say you buy a new cd of one of your favs, because you just think it'll be great because this particular artist/band always puts out quality music. You open it up, put it in, & you think it sucks right off the bat. You give it a bunch more spins to try to like, but nope, not gonna happen, it just simply sucks in your opinion. Now say you paid $14 for the cd, you can't return it because it's already opened. You can trade it in & probably get anywhere from 30-50% of your money back if you're lucky, but that's it. Now do you think that's a fair way for an artist/band to treat people that legally purchase music, esp. that particular artist/bands' fans? Do you believe that it's just the risk you take when you buy something you haven't heard yet & if you think it sucks, well then, "Sorry 'bout your bad luck, we got your cash & that's all that matters."
Have I ever bought a CD that sucked and made me feel I wasted my dough? Defenitly, more than once. I also happen to collect DVD's, and although I'm very proud on the sheer ammount of DVD's I got, a few films I have are so bad, it's mindboggeling. When I go buy an unknown CD, I have the music store spin it for me before I buy it. But I think it's very rare to buy a cd without knowing what's on it (I might have heard it over at a friends place, or someone recommended it, etc). But even then, if I did, it was my choice and decision to take that gamble, and I won't blame the artist for me not liking his music. Same goes with the DVD's. I read on the back what the movie is about, I see if I like the actors and director and if I get a good feeling with it, I buy it. If it ends up to be crap, well...my loss.
The only thing I then get pissed off about is the fact that I'm not a well known succesfull screenplay writer, while I know that even a 5 year old can come up with a better story than that :lol:


You know, you walk into this fancy restaurant with all kinds of forreign dishes. You have no clue what it all is, but you see on the menu that one of them is based on chicken, and you like chicken, so you try it. After consuming this green and brown looking smudg, you are pretty sure you just chowed down a plate full of beaver-barf and you are seriously contemplating having your stomach pumped. What do you say to the waiter? "I hated it, so I ain't paying!" ? (You can try, but if you want to do this really convincing, you better take another approach and spew it all out when he brings you the check ;))

"Sorry 'bout your bad luck, we got your cash & that's all that matters."

As much as we may all hate the above in various degrees, it happens to be the MO of this current world. And while it sometimes may be a pain, there's some good sides to it too. If Steve had no means to sustain his studio's etc, there would be no more Vai cd comming out. Money is what makes the world goes round and that will be the truth for the foreseable future. My point is that while you may hurt the greedy by downloading, you will also hurt those who are not greedy but still part of the process. The end result will only be working against you.

If you really dislike the way the record industry works today, don't complain....act on it. If you see the flaws and think you can do better, go for it. I know one guy who did just that, and it ain't going bad :)
(and, being in the record industry, you obviously can get your hands on any cd easally ;))

All I know is that I support the bands & artists that I like by spending my cash on their products & going to their concerts, & I'll continue to do just that. :) :wink:
By all means, keep doing just that :)

J.
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CymbalSplittingSkinbasher
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Here's just one example of many, from my experiences:

I remember when Metallica first came on the scene, supported them, bought all of their albums on vynil, & I've also "legally purchased" the cd's of theirs that I like, some t-shirts, posters, the whole shebang. Seen them in concert from Ride The Lightning up to, & including the Black Album tour. Then all of the sudden they put out a crapfest like Load, very disappointed. Then another crapfest in Re-Load, very disappointed AGAIN. Then, the ultimate crapfest in St. Anger, ultra disappointed with that total rubbish.

Man, I was super-pissed after I bought St. Anger & put it on, but, I already paid for it. Now in my view, that's 3 strikes against them, & as it stands right now, that band will never see another penny of my cash, unless of course, they put out something of excellent quality. I can guarantee you that I absolutely will not be buying the next Metallica record before I'm able to listen to all of it in it's entirety, to see if I feel it's worthy of a purchase by me, sorry, that's just the way I feel about them now, plus, Lars is a dounchebag anyway. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if their next record is worse than St. Anger.

Keep in mind, this is just an example of 1 band, & I don't know about you, but I absolutely cannot afford to keep doing that sort of thing. :peace
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Naffis-kun
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Back when I was a youngster, music was very, very afforable, not anymore, & this began to happen well before p2p formats were even in existence. Concerts were far cheaper too. Right now, I'm looking at my Kiss & Judas Priest ticket stub from 1979, guess how much to go to that concert? $10!!!!!!!!! How much do you think a ticket would cost for a show like that today? Maybe $50 minimum, & that's probably understating it.
Yeah. That pisses me off, too. But what can you do about it?
IMHO Record companies should re-consider the prices before nagging about illegal downloading.

My mother pays for this internet connection and I have practically no money. So as a big fan of music I could download stuff all day long.
But I never download anything. The prices still get me mad but there's nothing I can do about it. Too bad. Sometimes it feels like only the rich can enjoy music and movies these days.

Btw, some people actually rebel against the prices by downloading everything :roll:
They think that record companies will lower the prices that way..
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CymbalSplittingSkinbasher
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I don't have a problem buying a cd from one of my favorite artists or bands, or anyone else for that matter, that turns out to be mediocre at best. I fully understand that you can't hit a home run everytime you're up at the plate, so to speak, but 3 "caught looking" strikeouts in a row!, no way, I'm not going for that, I'm bringing a pinch hitter in next time. :wink:
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Jeroen
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Yeah, but if you don't like it anyway, then why download it?
J
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CymbalSplittingSkinbasher
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I never said that I download music that I know I don't like. :? I did say that I won't be buying the next Metallica until I hear it in it's entirety, & that just might include the possibility of me borrowing a legally purchased copy of it from a friend to listen to, that is, if I'm still permitted by law to borrow a legally purchased cd from a friend to listen to; that's not illegal, is it?

I'll tell you something else; I've bought more than enough vynil records, 8-track tapes, cassette tapes & cd's that I DIDN'T KNOW were terrible before I bought them! :wink:
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CymbalSplittingSkinbasher
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Just wanted to add this:

It's pretty common knowledge that a large percentage of the record companies & labels have been screwing over &/or giving the shaft to the artist AND the consumer for a very, very, very long time. :wink:
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Naffis-kun
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Well.. at least it's LEGAL :D!
Yahooooo! Move to Finland, everyone. You can "steal" (that's how you guys/saints put it) here.
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File Sharing isn't stealing. It's copyright infringement. Stealing involves taking something from somebody so they no longer have it. File sharing would be like going up to that Farari and pressing a button and having another one just like it show up in your garage. Ferrari won't be too hapy that you can do that, but technically, you didn't take anything, just a "potential" loss in revenue. But if you weren't going to ever buy it anyways, they didn't really lose anything. The only way to "steal" music is to walk into a CD store, put a CD in your jacket, and walk out.

The music industry puts out numbers of how much money is lost to file sharing each year. They're full of crap. The numbers are either a) made up or b) assume taht each song shared would have been purchased if it wasn't shared, which simply isn't true. most of the people i know buy music they like anyways, and only download stuff that they probably would never buy in the first place.

The purpose of this post isn't to say that its right or wrong, just to point out that "stealing" isnt' exactly a correct analogy
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