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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:39 am 
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Yozhik wrote:


Zeds.Ded,

That bit about the Guinness is mighty interesting and the end result was they had to modify their logo to conform to the legal owner of the official Guinness logo. As you stated there is a curve that artist’s in this case Commercial art must be indistinct from an original inspiration to avoid the courts. I was looking at the Carroll’s Irish Gift Stores online portal. They must have settled out of court now or contracted with Guinness because they are selling online mugs and other merchandise with the registered trademark from Guinness.

My next door neighbor is straight from Cork county Ireland and we have many fine discussions about politics, why can’t they sell Irish ham in the U.S., and why the American potatoes are watery and tasteless (a point I agree with) not at all like the wonderful Irish variety of Potato (which I have never tried but wish too).

Now to the point of how many notes make a case.

I still theorize that if it’s a signature melody like the two famous notes Queens’s bass player played from “Under Pressure” with a distinct rhythm and timing I would state it’s not about how many actual notes in sum total.

Vanilla Ice lost that case in court partly because he sampled it verbatim and was foolish enough to state the rhythm was “different” in court.


Counsel could stipulate that the signature notes are almost alike except for Vai’s cascading down and then back up again. But there is the signature notes that start the song and repeat through the solo etcetera.

“The Best of ZZ Top
In 1973, ZZ Top recorded their classic hit "La Grange" which was featured on their third album "Tres Hombres". A signature riff tune, "La Grange" was ZZ Top's first top 40 hit, and "Tres Hombres" went on to become their first gold album.
"La Grange" subsequently appeared on "Best of ZZ Top", which was released in 1977.
"La Grange appeared again on another best-of album, "ZZ Top Six Pack" in 1987.
In testimony of its staying power, "La Grange" appeared for the fourth time on their third best-of album, "Greatest Hits" in 1992.
Deja Vu on Boogie Chillen
In 1991, Bernard Besman heard "La Grange" and got a severe case of deja vu. Then in his eighties and head of La Cienega Music, the copyright owner of "Boogie Chillen", Besman decided to take a run against ZZ Top. By 1996, the judge dismissed part of the suit stating that the 1948 single and 1950 remake were in the public domain.
Consequently, the issue of whether the ZZ Top recordings infringe on the 1970 version of "Boogie Chillen" was supposed to have been heard sometime in 1997. “

I heard about this example but didn’t follow up on the court case outcome.

Yozhik


interesting stuff. i forgot to mention that Carroll's didnt have legal permission to use there logo on that particular range of products, whereas they have permission to use it on other products.

p.s you cant beat the Irish spuds! (as long as theres no blight in them!)


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 8:43 am 
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C'mon guys!

Anyone who plays an instrument knows that music is really limited, in our occidental attitude!

I mean if you could listen to all the music ever written/recorded you'll surely find a piece of this tune in that tune, or this same phrase both in the song X and in the Y and in song Z probably, c'mon!

And you'll start wondering: "Who copied who?" :roll:

When you write some music you'll be incredibly amazed at how the music you love the most naturally comes out of what your mind thinks (musically speaking). This is 100% normal.

A song must be put in a context to understand the intention an artist wants to give to the audience, and not only looking at a pentagram and carefully searching the same patterns, notes, chords, whatever...

Pop music is full of "interchanging" stuff. Have you ever tried to take two different songs, with similar chords (or with similar melodies) and to exchange the lyrics from one to the other?!

For example 80% of Ac/Dc's stuff can be randomly sung over any of their tunes, but nobody on earth would ever say they copied themselves!

So... let our musicians and artists free to do what they feel, we have a way more adaptable way to judge, that is the Music Herself.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:09 am 
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The thing I find interesting about this debate is how close it is to the Spirituality thread in that the "devote believers" won't hear anything against their Deity and beliefs ie. God or Steve.
The original post only suggested that they sound alike, no accustaion of plagiarism was made yet immediately Yozhik was attacked for his/her blasphemy. 8)


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:24 am 
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in fairness. its a Steve Vai website, with its most devote fans, what would you expect :?


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:37 am 
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I'd expect people to be more tolerant of others views.
Steve probably finds the the whole thing amusing that complete strangers leapt to his defence so readily, especially as no accusation was made.
Also Steve is probably open to the ideas mentioned above about how we can be subconciously influenced by the music we hear throughout our lives even if that music is far removed from what the artist and fans listen to.


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:46 am 
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he did ask "Where did Steve get the melody For the Love of God??" in the very title and even after the replies mentioning that there is a similarity but its coincidental/accidental more than anything else and explaining Steve's songwriting process, which would be more than enough for the start of the thread he continued asking if Steve had to pay for the rights of the Kung Fu song to release FTLOG, if there were similarities between the actual sheet music....

though I do agree that the "close the thread, waste of bandwith" is bit extreme


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:48 am 
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he did ask "Where did Steve get the melody For the Love of God??" in the very title and even after the replies mentioning that there is a similarity but its coincidental/accidental more than anything else and explaining Steve's songwriting process, which would be more than enough for the start of the thread he continued asking if Steve had to pay for the rights of the Kung Fu song to release FTLOG, if there were similarities between the actual sheet music....

though I do agree that the "close the thread, waste of bandwith" is bit extreme


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:53 am 
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boswell wrote:
The original post only suggested that they sound alike, no accustaion of plagiarism was made yet immediately Yozhik was attacked for his/her blasphemy. 8)


I don't really agree with you here, as he did bring it up although not with all guns blazing :)

Quote:
Does anyone know about the writing credits FTLOG and did Steve say he wrote and produced the whole thing as he usually does?


The above question is pretty suggestive :)

Quote:
But I wonder if he paid royalties or bought the tune rights?


This one just flat out assumes that it indeed is an issue.


Quote:
That would be fun to research if indeed there are copywrite issues.


And this one just got answered a big 'no' by reasons in my previous post.


But that's ok though, a discussion board would be quite boring if there wasn't any discussion, right? 8)

J


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 9:55 am 
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Jeroen wrote:
Vanilla Ice case is irrelevant to this, because that was a sample. There is a diffrence between using something that someone else made (a piece of a track /sample) vs something that you made yourself although based/quoting/inspired by someone elses track.

There's not even a verbatim quote of notes in the example you stated vs FTLOG, however, even if there was, copyright law leaves room for 'fair use', which for example can be determined by length of the quote vs overal length (percentage used). Vanilla ICE would be in trouble if he made the track himself sounding like the original (thus without samples), because it runs for the entire length of both songs. Besides that, that particular riff doesn't just sound the same, it *is* the same, which isn't the case in FTLOG vs the examples you posted.

Here's a relevant case and you'll noticed it the suit wasn't about copyright infrigment but plagiarism:

"when fellow Greek musician Stavros Logarides heard "Titles" he was furious, claiming Vangelis had stolen the melody from one of his compositions called "City of Violets." Once a member of a 1970s band called Poll and actually a friend of Vangelis at that time, Logarides sued Vangelis for plagiarism in 1987. When the case came to court, Vangelis set up synthesizers in the courtroom and played for the judge and all others present, though less for entertainment purposes and more so he could demonstrate his compositional process. The judge ruled that "Titles" was a Vangelis original, being a strong, vibrant piece of music, whereas "City of Violets" was fairly sombre and somewhat mournful by comparison, and any similarities in the melody were minor."

(source: wiki page on Vangelis Papathanassiou)


Also relevant is the statute of limitations:

Quote:
From what point in time does the 3-year statute of limitations begin to run?

The general rule is that the statute of limitations starts from the date of the last infringing act. However, the courts are divided as to how this applies. Some courts hold that you can recover your damages for the entirety of the infringement so long as a lawsuit is filed within 3 years of the last infringing act; others limit damages to those acts which occurred within the three years leading up to the lawsuit.




For the Love of God was written in the 80's, so motion denied, case dismissed. ;)

J



Jeroen,

Exactly what I was stating the "fair use" of which counsel would need to agree upon to make a judgment call concerning infringement of copyright.

What do you think protects artists from plagiarists? The copyright which for example for the life of the original author, or in this case Jim Helms as employed under Warner if you will scroll back in this thread and notice the original copyright and reregister by Warner.

When was Steve Vai’s filed did you look it up under the US copyright site? You are stating the Eighties so then Jim Helms existed before Steve’s legal team filed FTLOG during the eighties.

As for the statement concerning the statue of limitation concerning an infringement this doesn’t fly. There hasn’t been any filed?!

This is from a copywright web site.

“FAIR USE
The concept of fair use can be confusing and difficult to apply to particular uses of copyright protected material. Understanding the concept of fair use and when it applies may help ensure your compliance with copyright law.
Fair use is a uniquely U.S. concept, created by judges and enshrined in the law. Fair use recognizes that certain types of use of other people’s copyright protected works do not require the copyright holder’s authorization. In these instances, it is presumed the use is minimal enough that it does not interfere with the copyright holder’s exclusive rights to reproduce and otherwise reuse the work.
Fair use is primarily designed to allow the use of the copyright protected work for commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education. However, fair use is not an exception to copyright compliance so much as it is a “legal defense.” That is, if you use a copyright protected work and the copyright owner claims copyright infringement, you may be able to assert a defense of fair use, which you would then have to prove.
Section 107 of the United States Copyright Act lists four factors to help judges determine, and therefore to help you predict, when content usage may be considered “fair use.”
1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit, educational purposes.
If a particular usage is intended to help you or your organization to derive financial or other business-related benefits from the copyright material, then that is probably not fair use.
2. The nature of the copyrighted work.
Use of a purely factual work is more likely to be considered fair use than use of someone’s creative work.
3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyright protected work as a whole.
There are no set page counts or percentages that define the boundaries of fair use. Courts exercise common-sense judgment about whether what is being used is too much of, or so important to, the original overall work as to be beyond the scope of fair use.
4. The effect of the use on the potential market for or value of the copyright protected work.
This factor looks at whether the nature of the use competes with or diminishes the potential market for the form of use that the copyright holder is already employing, or can reasonably be expected soon to employ, in order to make money for itself through licensing.
At one extreme, simple reproduction of a work (i.e., photocopying) is commonly licensed by copyright holders, and therefore photocopying in a business environment is not likely to be considered fair use.
At the other extreme, true parody is more likely to be considered fair use because it is unlikely that the original copyright holder would create a parody of his or her own work.


Thanks for the interesting reply.


Yozhik


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:09 am 
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Jeroen wrote:
boswell wrote:
The original post only suggested that they sound alike, no accustaion of plagiarism was made yet immediately Yozhik was attacked for his/her blasphemy. 8)


I don't really agree with you here, as he did bring it up although not with all guns blazing :)

Quote:
Does anyone know about the writing credits FTLOG and did Steve say he wrote and produced the whole thing as he usually does?


The above question is pretty suggestive :)

Quote:
But I wonder if he paid royalties or bought the tune rights?


This one just flat out assumes that it indeed is an issue.


Quote:
That would be fun to research if indeed there are copywrite issues.


And this one just got answered a big 'no' by reasons in my previous post.


But that's ok though, a discussion board would be quite boring if there wasn't any discussion, right? 8)

J



Jeroen,

Perhaps you might think I am being judgmental but you forgot to include the line were I stated open text that I intend no legal or otherwise harm to Steve.

But this is a free and democratic forum where we can discuss rationally and be shown to be incorrect for such accusations and that’s what it’s all about.

It seems to be that way to my enjoyment so far.

Yozhik


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:11 am 
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very good discussion i will say :)


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:14 am 
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Yozhik wrote:
When was Steve Vai’s filed did you look it up under the US copyright site?


I believe the CD says (c) 1990 SyVy music, but I could be wrong a year or two. However, a work doesn't need to be registered in order to be protected by copyright law. Copyright is default from the moment you create it. It just maybe easier to prove if you register it, but that can be easily and cheaply done by mailing the music in a sealed and certified envelope to yourself through certified mail. The copyright starts from the moment it was created, but I'm not exactly sure in which year Steve wrote FTLOG.

Quote:
As for the statement concerning the statue of limitation concerning an infringement this doesn’t fly. There hasn’t been any filed?!


Statute of limitations defines how long you can wait before engaging in legal action at the most. For example, the government can still prosecute you for murder after 19 years. Once the crime has been longer than 20 years ago, they can't touch you. The statute of limitations in this case would be 3 years. Therefore, any suit filed would be dismissed without prejudice (which means that the judge won't determine if the claim is true or false, it just get dismissed because it's too old) or most likely not even accepted.

If it was recent, then one of the many arguments could be fair use.


J


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:15 am 
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so the show 'cold case' is wrong!!!

nooo!! i love that show!! :cry:






:wink:


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:22 am 
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Quote:
Perhaps you might think I am being judgmental but you forgot to include the line were I stated open text that I intend no legal or otherwise harm to Steve.


Don't worry, no one thinks you're out to harm Steve. :)

Quote:
So the show 'cold case' is wrong!!!


No, I am. Sort of. The limitation for murder in Holland is 20 years I believe, and in the US there's no limitation for murder. Reading up and being even more precise, "Statute of limitation" is in criminal law only, in civil law (which is what a copyright case would be) it's called different, but the idea is the same.

J


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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:46 am 
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Jeroen wrote:
Yozhik wrote:
When was Steve Vai’s filed did you look it up under the US copyright site?


I believe the CD says (c) 1990 SyVy music, but I could be wrong a year or two. However, a work doesn't need to be registered in order to be protected by copyright law. Copyright is default from the moment you create it. It just maybe easier to prove if you register it, but that can be easily and cheaply done by mailing the music in a sealed and certified envelope to yourself through certified mail. The copyright starts from the moment it was created, but I'm not exactly sure in which year Steve wrote FTLOG.

Quote:
As for the statement concerning the statue of limitation concerning an infringement this doesn’t fly. There hasn’t been any filed?!


Statute of limitations defines how long you can wait before engaging in legal action at the most. For example, the government can still prosecute you for murder after 19 years. Once the crime has been longer than 20 years ago, they can't touch you. The statute of limitations in this case would be 3 years. Therefore, any suit filed would be dismissed without prejudice (which means that the judge won't determine if the claim is true or false, it just get dismissed because it's too old) or most likely not even accepted.

If it was recent, then one of the many arguments could be fair use.


J



Jeroen,

I searched online for a total of 92 Steve Vai copywrights for registered works and not one For The Love of God.

That's strange?


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