Ibanez Backstops

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Jeroen
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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#16 Post by Jeroen » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:27 am

I can think of no other way to explain this than by shooting a little video, so give me a few moments...

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#17 Post by Patill » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:34 am

Jeroen wrote:I can think of no other way to explain this than by shooting a little video, so give me a few moments...

you´re doing a video :lol:? Let´s see^^!!!!!!!


I think I know what you mean. Just tipping the trem with the back stop. But that won´t have any effect. It´simple physics and vectors.

1. Using the trem: If you push the arm down, the backstop won´t be touched anymore, if you release it´s just tipped. If you go sharp, the trem will go shaprp very lightly, but still, if you go back to the normal position the backstop just tips the trem. That won´t get tuning problems away, since it tips the trem without getting it out of tune (when adjusting).

2. A string breaks: Since there´s no tension on the backstop, the trem will push the Backstopstrings back easily.

3. Resting the hand: Still too less tension in the backstop springs to compensate the pressure. Unless you play very light (so you won´t need a Backstop), that won´t be a help.

You have to tense the trem springs at least a little bit to get any help here. That´s what the manual says.

http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/har ... kstop2.jpg
Last edited by Patill on Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#18 Post by Jeroen » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:40 am

Patill wrote:
Jeroen wrote:I can think of no other way to explain this than by shooting a little video, so give me a few moments...

you´re doing a video :lol:? Let´s see^^!!!!!!!


I think I know what you mean. Just tipping the trem with the back stop. But that won´t have any effect. It´simple physics and vectors.

1. Using the trem: If you push the arm down, the backstop won´t be touched anymore, if you release it´s just tipped. If you go sharp, the trem will go shaprp very lightly, but still, if you go back to the normal position the backstop just tips the trem. That won´t get tuning problems away, since it tips the trem without getting it out of tune (when adjusting).

2. A string breaks: Since there´s no tension on the backstop, the trem will push the Backstopstrings back easily.

3. Resting the hand: Still too less tension in the backstop springs to compensate the pressure. Unless you play very light (so you won´t need a Backstop), that won´t be a help.

You have to tense the trem springs at least a little bit to get any help here. That´s what the manual says.

http://www.ibanezrules.com/catalogs/har ... kstop2.jpg
That's basically it, with one difference: even if you setup the backstop in this way, basically where the BS is maxed out where the trem is on 0, you can set the tension anywhere from light to heavy, using one or two buffers and both can be set from light to strong. So, where steve uses the above method, the pull up on the bar is actually quite sturdy and it helps with the hand on the trem resting situation.

See, since you now get it, I don't have to bother with a video anymore ;0

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#19 Post by Patill » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:45 am

OK, so we got that :lol:

Now look at this picture:

Image

Look at the backstop from the trem spring screws side. The first two screws you see of the backstop are free floating. If there was no tension on the backstop (caused by the trem) they would push against the backstop, since the backstop-springs would expand. But because Steve turned in the trem spring screws, the trem springs pull the trem so it pushes against the backstop and makes the Backstop springs tensed. That´s why the screws on the back of the backstop are floating and not even with the backstop.

If you want to bend notes without the others going out of tune, it won´t help you to just tip the trem with the backstop, since the trem will raise out of the guitar when you bend. You have to turn in the trem spring screws and even the trem with the backstop :)

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#20 Post by Jeroen » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:02 pm

Nice theory, but realize that there is one rubber grommet missing on that old backstop, and the guitar is face down resting on the bridge (it's an edge, so it sticks a whole lot out).

But what really hammers it home for me personally, is that I've had Steve's guitars in my hands a bunch of times and I'm 99% sure that Flo is setup in method 1, and I'm fairly sure Evo as well.

And I think I can explain why: with setup 2, you eliminate for the better part any chance of getting a good flutter out of your trem and Steve likes to flutter; and method 1 fits the need to compensate for a bit of pressure of a resting hand while not needlessly complicating the setup of the guitar (bridge angle and quick tuning after string changes, climate adjustments - something you need to seriously consider on tour axes).

But I'll double check with someone who has tech'ed extensively on Flo.
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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#21 Post by Patill » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:33 am

Jeroen wrote:Nice theory, but realize that there is one rubber grommet missing on that old backstop, and the guitar is face down resting on the bridge (it's an edge, so it sticks a whole lot out).
Yeah, you´re right about that :). I didn´t think of that. I also thought about why these screws are loose, usually they should be even with the backstop...

But one thing still confuses me. If you look at the trem side of the backstop (not the screw side) you can see the gap between the studs and the guiding hole is smaller than the gap of the screws on the trem screw side That would mean, the studs would push against the backstop when the trem is released, not against the trem.

You know what I mean?

Pretty confusing^^. I think having a look would be best as you said. I hope to be able to hold Evo once again. I´d really like to see Steve on tour once more :)

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#22 Post by loran333 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:30 pm

The first time that I saw a backstop on evo was in may 93 , in Cannes for a masterclass.

At the beginning it seems that the backstop was set on "buffer in tune",
this is only my thought (so maybe I'm wrong) and this is why :

From what I have seen on the sex & religion tour , the fire garden tour , Steve doesn't use flutter , not even one time.
On a video from korea 's tv , Steve broke a string on evo (the high E) while he played "I would love to"
and the guitar don't go out of tune.

The purpose of unison bends is the "wavering" between the two notes so you don't have to be very precise.
Some people push on the trem while bending or bend the another string to compensate.

Eh , Jeroen , have you seen the "backstop for the poor" on the mirror ball 7 strings ?

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#23 Post by Jeroen » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:56 am

You mean the battery? To block the trem, yes :)

Check out the Astoria (blue powder and a few others), with fluttering like crazy.
Also, Steve uses flutter a lot on Flo, like at the end of FTLOG.

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#24 Post by loran333 » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:55 pm

I speak about the "buffer in tune" only for the sex and religion and fire garden era.

after , of course steve flutter a lot.

yes , the battery :D

(by the way , I try the two way for the backstop and I prefer unencombered trems.)

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#25 Post by Patill » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:26 am

Jeroen wrote: Check out the Astoria (blue powder and a few others), with fluttering like crazy.
But you can hear the fluttering is very limited because of the backstop.
Jeroen wrote: Also, Steve uses flutter a lot on Flo, like at the end of FTLOG.
Does Flo have a backstop? I thought it was only on Evo?!

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#26 Post by loran333 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:09 am

at 1:40 to 1:43 you can hear the characteristic noise of the backstop.

and this is the characteristic noise of an "buffer only" backstop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq6cafsk ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#27 Post by Patill » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:48 am

loran333 wrote:at 1:40 to 1:43 you can hear the characteristic noise of the backstop.

and this is the characteristic noise of an "buffer only" backstop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq6cafsk ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

so yes, it has a backstop...didn´t know that ;). But the noise is not characteristic for buffer only :). Mine does that noise, too, in fact I just tensed the trem springs a little bit to keep the guitar in tune 100%, it´s not like you have push it to the edge with the trem screws. That noise appears if the trem gets "rid" of the backstop, usually that sound should be in every guitar with a backstop, because it doesn´t push so far.


Actually it´s not of that big matter how Steve set it up I think :). My opinion, even if I don´t know is, that he also gave the trem springs a quarter to a half turn, because the guitar is just always tuned if you do and you won´t realize anything. Evo above all with the crack...

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Re: Ibanez Backstops

#28 Post by SRVoodoo » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:01 pm

when doing unison bends you need to apply a little pressure from your palm onto the bridge to keep it from rocking forward :wink:

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