Vai about the True-Temperament System and his new Doubleneck

Discuss Steve's guitars, set-up and equipment here. This forum is not for discussing general guitar topics.
BigBadMoFoGangsta
Member
Member
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 2:28 am

I bought my first guitar when I was 17 years old. I am 36 years old now and I have ever heard so much as a whisper or a peep that the guitar could never truly be in tune. I've bought several self-teaching guitar DVDs over the years and during the tuning phase they never mention that the guitar is an imperfect instrument that can never truly be in tune. I've bought several music books over the years and its never been mentioned in those books either. I've never read about it on any website. In other words, its a revelation to me. Someone point to a link that proves this has been discussed prior to the introduction of true-temperment guitar necks? Has Vai discussed the subject in anyof his video or magazine interviews over the years? And I want to see proof that dates waaaay back. Not 2-3 years. I think this is a bandwagon that everyone is just jumping on because they are excited about the new technology. Either I have lived a very sheltered life, OR just maybe, the fact that a guitar with a traditional neck could never "truly" be in tune is not as common knowledge as some people would have me to believe it is. It was never common knowledge to me.
User avatar
notavirtuoso
Member
Member
Posts: 587
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:56 pm

BigBadMoFoGangsta wrote:I bought my first guitar when I was 17 years old. I am 36 years old now and I have ever heard so much as a whisper or a peep that the guitar could never truly be in tune. I've bought several self-teaching guitar DVDs over the years and during the tuning phase they never mention that the guitar is an imperfect instrument that can never truly be in tune. I've bought several music books over the years and its never been mentioned in those books either. I've never read about it on any website. In other words, its a revelation to me. Someone point to a link that proves this has been discussed prior to the introduction of true-temperment guitar necks? Has Vai discussed the subject in anyof his video or magazine interviews over the years? And I want to see proof that dates waaaay back. Not 2-3 years. I think this is a bandwagon that everyone is just jumping on because they are excited about the new technology. Either I have lived a very sheltered life, OR just maybe, the fact that a guitar with a traditional neck could never "truly" be in tune is not as common knowledge as some people would have me to believe it is. It was never common knowledge to me.
I became aware of it when I heard of the Buzz Feiten tuning system several years ago.
fixxer746
Member
Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:17 pm

Perhaps the reason no one talked about the fact that a guitar could never be perfectly in tune, was due to people just assuming that it was the nature of the guitar and that there was nothing that they could do to fix it. Also the reason why no one has developed this before is because, A) it requires a great deal of calculations to calculate precisely where the frets should be for each note, and B) CNC machines have made manufacturing something like this a lot easier than it would of been in the 70's or 80's.

Also, I think that if only one person had a true tempermant system(or the Earvana nute or Buzz Feiten System) in a band and they had another bass player and a guitarist, you will sound out of tune to them. Because the bass player and other guitarist will say that they are in tune and that you are the one who sounds out. Unless everyone in the band has perfect pitch they will not be able to tell that you are the one who's really in tune.
Luan
Member
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:19 pm

Anyone that learned Die to Live would notice that the A chord on the riff is out of tune, it's more noticeable when played with distortion.
The C# of the 2nd string is the most out of tune note of that chord.
The awesome thing, is that if you out of tune a little the 2nd string (I think that making it a little flat) that chord will sound in tune.
Of course, if you do that, other notes of that string will sound out of tune, that's why systems like this exist.
What I've always wondered is how the hell Steve recorded that riff, and how did he played live recently, with this new guitar?
I've heard that Van Halen used to do this trick of lowering the tuning of the 2nd string.

I would love to see an answer from the man himself, c'mon mikey tell him! :P
User avatar
resha
Member
Member
Posts: 3008
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:09 am

Luan wrote:Anyone that learned Die to Live would notice that the A chord on the riff is out of tune, it's more noticeable when played with distortion.
The C# of the 2nd string is the most out of tune note of that chord.
The awesome thing, is that if you out of tune a little the 2nd string (I think that making it a little flat) that chord will sound in tune.
Of course, if you do that, other notes of that string will sound out of tune, that's why systems like this exist.
What I've always wondered is how the hell Steve recorded that riff, and how did he played live recently, with this new guitar?
I've heard that Van Halen used to do this trick of lowering the tuning of the 2nd string.

I would love to see an answer from the man himself, c'mon mikey tell him! :P
Yeah that particular C# sounds at a higher pitch, I think it's just mattter of some cents -no more than 8/10 I dare say- but if you ask someone "does this chord sound out of tune?" no one will answer "yes"

This is the reason why a system like this will save us 8)
Luan
Member
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:19 pm

what?

Play that chord, listen to it
put distorsion on and listen to it again, then tune correctly that note and listen to it again, even with distortion it will sound in tune.
User avatar
RAI
Member
Member
Posts: 3195
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:23 pm

BigBadMoFoGangsta wrote:I bought my first guitar when I was 17 years old. I am 36 years old now and I have ever heard so much as a whisper or a peep that the guitar could never truly be in tune. I've bought several self-teaching guitar DVDs over the years and during the tuning phase they never mention that the guitar is an imperfect instrument that can never truly be in tune. I've bought several music books over the years and its never been mentioned in those books either. I've never read about it on any website. In other words, its a revelation to me. Someone point to a link that proves this has been discussed prior to the introduction of true-temperment guitar necks? Has Vai discussed the subject in anyof his video or magazine interviews over the years? And I want to see proof that dates waaaay back. Not 2-3 years. I think this is a bandwagon that everyone is just jumping on because they are excited about the new technology. Either I have lived a very sheltered life, OR just maybe, the fact that a guitar with a traditional neck could never "truly" be in tune is not as common knowledge as some people would have me to believe it is. It was never common knowledge to me.
"Common knowledge" is such an oxymoron...
Anywho, there is no bandwagon, just fact.
If you think about it, it just makes plain sense.
You can only tune each string once, and after that, all the remaining notes are left out in the cold.
What this system has done, is look at the fact that the notes need to be adjusted individually to be in tune. You cannot just tune the string to open note, and expect that the other strings will be in perfect harmony.
All the strings, with all the frets, narrowed down to be in-tune in one shot?
Ain't happening.
That would be like having a piano with one continuos string, that just keeps wrapping around posts, going from key to key.
How would you perfect that?
By adjusting the wrap point/length of the string, right?
Same thing here.
One string, but with each note adjusted to be in perfect tune, instead of just leaving them at a general/average default.


And for anyone playing guitar, we all know that tuning your guitar to be in tune for one chord, will leave you with others being out of tune.
No matter how perfect the intonation....
User avatar
resha
Member
Member
Posts: 3008
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:09 am

Luan wrote:what?

Play that chord, listen to it
put distorsion on and listen to it again, then tune correctly that note and listen to it again, even with distortion it will sound in tune.
I'm saying that if you ask a non player he will not recognize that particular C# beign out of tune.

Some players will, but a normal person not.

I know that's it's out and any guitar player knows that a guitar is not a perfect instrument :wink:
Luan
Member
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:19 pm

and why did you said that?
I don't get it.
anuj
Member
Member
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:03 am

yes, it's a detail. most folks get by their lives without worrying about it. some don't *shrug*. nothing wrong with either choice, but the issue is certainly a mathematically/physically sound one.

~A
Luan
Member
Member
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:19 pm

it depends.
try to play van halen riffs, all those triads with distortion, it will sound horrible.
running with the devil for example.
User avatar
Breeder
Member
Member
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:12 am

resha wrote:
Yeah that particular C# sounds at a higher pitch, I think it's just mattter of some cents -no more than 8/10 I dare say- but if you ask someone "does this chord sound out of tune?" no one will answer "yes"

This is the reason why a system like this will save us 8)
12 cents higher to be exact 8) (human ear can notice around 5 cent difference-when distortion is on you can notice even smaller differences thanks to "acoustic beats" effect)

and yes...normal people (non musicians) can notice something is wrong when you isolate the problem and explain it to them(distortion helps enormously here)
User avatar
resha
Member
Member
Posts: 3008
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:09 am

Luan wrote:and why did you said that?
I don't get it.
Stop asking please.

We are saying the same thing.
anton zedd
Member
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:24 pm

IMO, I'd imagine if Steve was going to retro-fit all of his guitars with the new true temperment necks that he would most likely get "Stainless Steel Frets" installed, generally speaking if this were the case the necks would never need a fret job. Problem solved, now you guys can get back to being all technical again.:)

P.s. and if Ibanez were going to mass-produce a new jem with the true temperment neck, stainless steel frets would be the most logical solution I'd say.



Anton Zedd
www.myspace.com/antonzedd
User avatar
resha
Member
Member
Posts: 3008
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:09 am

In any case I'd say TT would produce lots of necks for Steve instead of doing the refret job :wink:
Post Reply